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Darkest Night (First edition)» Forums » General

Subject: Final Battle Thoughts rss

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Play Ball
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Allow me to first say that I love this game (I've only played the base game), love the characters, love their abilities, love the timing/strategy involved. I also have great respect for the designer and what he's put together as a whole.

I've read thru many of the reviews and rule threads, how hard it is, how easy it is, etc. But I've played 4 games so far and won all of them the same way.

Standard Rules
Game 1: Seer, Knight (died, then Acolyte), Rogue, Wizard (Darkness: 30)
Game 2: Druid, Acolyte, Prince, Priest (Darkness: 12)

Advanced Modified (get 5 keys for first holy relic)
Game 3: Seer, Scholar, Prince, Priest (Darkness: 10)

Advanced Modified (get 5 keys for first holy relic, random powers)
Game 4: Knight, Rogue, Wizard, Acolyte (Darkness: 20)

After the first game, I quickly figured out as well as confirmed thru the forum threads that winning the game by killing the Necromancer was best accomplished by luring him into a location and then finishing him off. Like clockwork, once each hero had 2 or 3 grace, I lured the Necromancer in and waited for my hero with the lone relic to roll the magic '6' for the win. If I didn't do it the first time, I would regroup and then repeat the winning strategy until defeating the Necromancer. Basically, rolling the '6' was a foregone conclusion.

I suppose I could use other advanced modifications, such as adding more blights, starting higher on the darkness track, lowering my grace & secrecy, or even adding the first expansion to include side quests to make it more challenging, but personally I think these modifications all fail to address the lack of tension or drama in that final confrontation.

I feel like the strategy of luring in the Necromancer is almost too silly, like I fooled the Necromancer so easily. Wouldn't it be more dramatic to assume that maybe, just maybe, the Necromancer was aware of the heroes' trapping/luring strategy, and thus was preparing something to counter such a move? What if the Necromancer, aware of the lure, came in with a vengeance and cast a spell (more powerful than a blight) that immobilized all of the heroes for one turn while also dealing damage to them. What if the Necromancer randomly killed off one of the heroes, quite possibly the one with the holy relic? What if the Necromancer mentally drained one of the heroes of all his power cards permanently? What if the Necromancer dealt a surprise second attack on a hero? Basically, it would cause me to be anxious and on my toes for fear of not knowing who might die, who might the Necromancer maim, what tricks he has up his sleeve. It would rid me of my confidence and heighten the drama. Because if I had my heroes, thinking they were quite ready & capable, only to be dealt a surprise blow by the Necromancer (think Necromancer's Final Battle Event Deck) where, say, my Acolyte was immolated on the spot by him, I would likely find myself in a panic, quickly try to reevaluate my next best option, which would heighten the drama. Alas, I would still roll that fatal '6' in order to win, but the Necromancer would have at least dealt a traumatic blow to the heroic party, that the survivors, if any, would have a story to tell for the ages. Like any dramatic movie ending, that's kind of what I was hoping for, but failed to experience after the first victory.

Again, absolutely love the game but just wish it could have been more dramatic at the end, over and over again.

Thoughts about having something such as a Necromancer's Final Battle Event Deck?






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Uwe Heilmann
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Hi from Germany,

Darkest Night provides an unlimited potential for expansions, additions, modifications to provide more and more challenges, content details, suspense, etc.

Start with adding a dragon.


Cheers
U.L.H.

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Aaron White
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I always thought it would be cool to have a game about travelling the world and learning new skills for combat. Then at the end of the game the big boss appears and it changes into a combat mini game where you have to use the skills you have learned. Runebound 3rd Edition is like that, but I was thinking more of a dramatic departure from standard combat with a special board and rules.

Your ideas made me think of mine, so you are on the right track. Love Darkest Night, looking forward to the capstone kit.
 
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Vernon Evenhuis
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I don't know if you have any of the expansions or not, but some of them have new mechanics that address some of the issues you have. "In Tales of Old" in particular can really change the game. It replaces the keys with clues, and you need 10 clues to locate one Relic. What really changes things though, is the fact that when you would normally find a key, you draw a Mystery card, giving you a small number of clues, but also randomly designating a location where, by passing a skill test, you can find more clues. This forces your heroes to venture into dangerous blight filled locations they would normally stay clear of. With this expansion, you can no longer camp out in the woods or mountains searching for keys. Does it change the end game? No, you're still likely going to set up an ambush somewhere to try to finish the Necromancer, but it's not going to be as easy getting to that point, and you'll be forced to explore more of the map to do it, creating more of the tension you're looking for.

The other expansions also have Quests, which, with one rule, will toughen the Necromancer with each one left unfulfilled, and Darkness cards that come into play as the Darkness track advances and gives the Necromancer special additional powers.

Good Luck!
 
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Paweł Bedz
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White Knight wrote:
I don't know if you have any of the expansions or not, but some of them have new mechanics that address some of the issues you have. "In Tales of Old" in particular can really change the game. It replaces the keys with clues, and you need 10 clues to locate one Relic. What really changes things though, is the fact that when you would normally find a key, you draw a Mystery card, giving you a small number of clues, but also randomly designating a location where, by passing a skill test, you can find more clues. This forces your heroes to venture into dangerous blight filled locations they would normally stay clear of. With this expansion, you can no longer camp out in the woods or mountains searching for keys. Does it change the end game? No, you're still likely going to set up an ambush somewhere to try to finish the Necromancer, but it's not going to be as easy getting to that point, and you'll be forced to explore more of the map to do it, creating more of the tension you're looking for.

The other expansions also have Quests, which, with one rule, will toughen the Necromancer with each one left unfulfilled, and Darkness cards that come into play as the Darkness track advances and gives the Necromancer special additional powers.

Good Luck!

And Darkness cards have this "awesome" Shatter Hope card... Gosh, how i hate this card! It always makes me think "What?! All over again?! Like i was not already in deep s**t...". Then comes the urge to throw the table upside down... Real Necro power - influencing real person!
 
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Play Ball
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tuner 13 wrote:
Darkest Night provides an unlimited potential for expansions, additions, modifications to provide more and more challenges, content details, suspense, etc.

Start with adding a dragon.


I'm starting to see how the expansions play into their namesake of expanding the gaming experience. I'm not sure how to add a dragon...I assume that's something others have done, unless you were suggesting creating it from scratch as a new feature.

Rook96 wrote:
I always thought it would be cool to have a game about travelling the world and learning new skills for combat. Then at the end of the game the big boss appears and it changes into a combat mini game where you have to use the skills you have learned. Runebound 3rd Edition is like that, but I was thinking more of a dramatic departure from standard combat with a special board and rules.


Thanks for the comparison of Runebound 3e...will be looking into that.

White Knight wrote:
I don't know if you have any of the expansions or not, but some of them have new mechanics that address some of the issues you have. "In Tales of Old" in particular can really change the game. It replaces the keys with clues, and you need 10 clues to locate one Relic. What really changes things though, is the fact that when you would normally find a key, you draw a Mystery card, giving you a small number of clues, but also randomly designating a location where, by passing a skill test, you can find more clues. This forces your heroes to venture into dangerous blight filled locations they would normally stay clear of. With this expansion, you can no longer camp out in the woods or mountains searching for keys. Does it change the end game? No, you're still likely going to set up an ambush somewhere to try to finish the Necromancer, but it's not going to be as easy getting to that point, and you'll be forced to explore more of the map to do it, creating more of the tension you're looking for.

The other expansions also have Quests, which, with one rule, will toughen the Necromancer with each one left unfulfilled, and Darkness cards that come into play as the Darkness track advances and gives the Necromancer special additional powers.

Good Luck!


I noticed the 3rd expansion adds the Darkness cards, which has me intrigued. Thanks for the insight on "In Tales of Old", definitely something I would be interested in and fills in some of the drama.

misioooo wrote:
And Darkness cards have this "awesome" Shatter Hope card...


Shattered Hope...sounds like a healthy dose of drama to me!

Appreciate all the feedback and suggestions. May still put together a final battle variant.
 
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Uwe Heilmann
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Hi from Germany,

"adding a dragon" could be understood as a kind of "be a maverick, change/amend a game system to your liking", or as a direct hint.

I did add a dragon. She is actually a shape-shifter. In human form she is a rather humble girl, too weak and small to present the necromancer a real threat. But as she transforms she turns into a really dangerous opponent to the lord of the undead.
Her attacks with fire breath turns most blights into ashes. But everything else, too. Other heroes should not be around a raging dragon. Regarding the locations' inhabitants they do not really like watching all their homes going up in flames.
This forces the player to have the dragon/girl act cautiously and only to eliminate targets worthwhile the inherent negative consequences.

The dragon represents just one of my alterations/additions to the original game system.
There are more locations, a flexible game board, the locals, the seals (magic constructs blocking the access to the treasure chests hosting the Holy Relics), more quests, the role of the keys, etc. etc.

Enjoy the game.


Cheers
U.L.H.


 
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Brian C
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I really like the idea of having a more involved final battle.

Good luck if you decide to try and stitch one together
 
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Play Ball
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tuner 13 wrote:
Hi from Germany,

"adding a dragon" could be understood as a kind of "be a maverick, change/amend a game system to your liking", or as a direct hint.

I did add a dragon. She is actually a shape-shifter. In human form she is a rather humble girl, too weak and small to present the necromancer a real threat. But as she transforms she turns into a really dangerous opponent to the lord of the undead.
Her attacks with fire breath turns most blights into ashes. But everything else, too. Other heroes should not be around a raging dragon. Regarding the locations' inhabitants they do not really like watching all their homes going up in flames.
This forces the player to have the dragon/girl act cautiously and only to eliminate targets worthwhile the inherent negative consequences.

The dragon represents just one of my alterations/additions to the original game system.
There are more locations, a flexible game board, the locals, the seals (magic constructs blocking the access to the treasure chests hosting the Holy Relics), more quests, the role of the keys, etc. etc.

Enjoy the game.


Cheers
U.L.H.




Thanks for the info, fantastic ideas! I take it you didn't feel significant game imbalances or was able to work thru them?

 
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Uwe Heilmann
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Thanks for the response.

In fact, I don't really care for imbalances in games like DN. Games I like, I will tune. One way to eventually tackle any imbalances is what I call the DYO system. At the end of each game, a simple procedure is applied: You won - some parameter settings for the next game will be changed to increase the challenge. You lost - some parameter settings for the next game will be changed to lower the challenge. Simple as that.

For me the most fun in tuning games like DN is to add ones own heroes, i.e. drop dead gorgeous girls, skillful, powerful and ... damn good looking.


Cheers
U.L.H.

 
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