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Ulisses
Brazil
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I love the Viticulture. It is currently my TOP 1. Earlier this year bought 2 modules (included in Tuscany or Tuscany EE) because I wanted to play with the extended map and the new deck structures:



After a few games my group noticed that there are 2 cards of structures that can ruin the gaming experience because they are unbalanced.

I believe that the main on a board game is to bring friends together and have fun moments. With this in mind I will suggest that two cards of that module need to be modified.

To try to highlight this situation, I raised the question:
"How many points can I earn using the bonus of a structure during 4 seasons (1 year)"

I determined the following parameters:
- 3 players (up 2 spots available)
- 6 Workers
- 7 cards in hand
- Prerequisites always available (amount of Liras, grapes, wines, type of cards)

I set the following table and made the conversion to VP. Considered one worker = 4 Liras and values from spot trades on to one.



In this table we can see that there are two structures that make many points above the average: Tavern and Tap Room. This is further compounded when you considers that these two structures are used in conjunction with visitor cards, who are very powerful by itself. Achieving, in ideal cases, to provide 23 points using only one worker and without having built the large cellar.

I consider this to be a problem, since I believe the Viticulture has a good balance between the players without using this module.

I see two alternatives:

- Use the other 34 cards from the deck. (Removing Tavern and Tap Room)
- Change the card text.

For the second alternative I have two suggestions:

i) Still powerfull
- When you play a Summer or Winter visitor you may discard 1 wine to gain 2 VP
to:
- When you play a Winter visitor you may discard 1 wine to gain 2 VP

- When you play a Summer or Winter visitor you may discard 2 grapes to gain 3 VP
to:
- When you play a Summer visitor you may discard 2 grapes to gain 3 VP



ii) Less powerfull - similar to most of all structures
- When you play a Summer or Winter visitor you may discard 1 wine to gain 2 VP
to:
- After you retrieve your workers you may discard 1 wine to gain 2 VP

- When you play a Summer or Winter visitor you may discard 2 grapes to gain 3 VP
to:
- After you retrieve your workers you may discard 2 grapes to gain 3 VP



I really like the structures module and would like to enjoy it better.
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My Turn Yet?
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Kirkland
WA
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Aikido Northshore, Kirkland WA
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I love that BGG provides me with access to people that think about this sort of stuff. I find it amazing and enjoy insight that I get out of it.

Great job!

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Remind me not to play against you...
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Byron S
United States
Ventura
California
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So many people think that being bigger makes you a better person.
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I'm (probably) bigger than you, but that doesn't make me any better. It's what's inside that counts.
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How are you playing 7 visitors per turn? There's only 4 spots, with 2 allowing you to play two visitors, for a total of 6.
 
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David Harrison
United States
Greenville
SC
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I've only played with the structures expansion once, so I don't have much first-hand experience. However, I'd like to point out that it would take an enormous amount of setup (and no interference from opponents) to gain even half that many VPs in one year in that manner, and I don't think comparing the value of structures based on the maximum VPs they can give you in one year is necessarily valid, since for the Tap Room/Tavern for instance you're sacrificing VPs you could've gained another way (for instance, via fulfilling wine orders).

It may still be that the Tap Room/Tavern are better than average structures, but I still object to ranking structures based on the maximum VP that could theoretically be earned in one year.
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David Harrison
United States
Greenville
SC
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runtsta wrote:
How are you playing 7 visitors per turn? There's only 4 spots, with 2 allowing you to play two visitors, for a total of 6.


Grande worker.
 
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Byron S
United States
Ventura
California
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So many people think that being bigger makes you a better person.
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coblackmagus wrote:
runtsta wrote:
How are you playing 7 visitors per turn? There's only 4 spots, with 2 allowing you to play two visitors, for a total of 6.

Grande worker.

Duh, of course. It still requires having 7 playable visitor cards in your hand, plus all the necessary grapes and wines, which is a LOT of setup needed. Your opponents also have to be idiots to let you get all those spots to yourself.
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Ryan Mrochuk
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I've played over 50 games now, and I've commented on this before. I agree with you. It takes A LOT of setup. I'm my opinion it's not broken. On the rare occasion that you get these cards right at the beginning, well that's just luck. If you can build that engine, good on you! Other players can also take note and try to block spots. I don't see it as a problem. If it happened against me I would not feel upset. I would admire the players strategy.
 
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Mike Smith
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We just played with structures for the first time last week. I pulled off 19 points in one turn with the taproom and won the game without a single player fulfilling an order. The group consensus was than that we didn't like the structures module. Maybe I'll suggest next time we just pull out these 2 cards.
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Jamey Stegmaier
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
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Mike: I hope you give it another try. It's a fair assessment that the tap room may be overpowered, but I love the structure expansion, and I hope you all give it another chance if it was just the tap room that detracted from the experience (it would make sense for you to remove the card in that case, not the entire module). But Tuscany does function as individual modules, so if people don't enjoy one of them, they can easily remove it and just play with the others.
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Pauly Paul
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
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Fuzzydeath wrote:
We just played with structures for the first time last week. I pulled off 19 points in one turn with the taproom and won the game without a single player fulfilling an order. The group consensus was than that we didn't like the structures module. Maybe I'll suggest next time we just pull out these 2 cards.


I'm confused how you were able to get 19 points in one turn. Reading the description of the card it says when you play a summer or winter card you can discard one wine token to get 2 points. Is the limit not one token only, no matter how many you might have?

 
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Jamey Stegmaier
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St. Louis
Missouri
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Paul: You're correct, every time you play a summer or winter visitor card, the most wine tokens you can discard is one. You would probably plan a year in the game where you have a lot of wine and play a lot of visitor cards, though not all in one turn.
 
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