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Advanced Tobruk» Forums » General

Subject: Converting ASL scenarios to ATS rss

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Ian Borrows
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I've noticed the very highly rated Red Barricades about the fighting in Stalingrad is to be re-released by MMP as Red Factories. I'm a real sucker for the battle of Stalingrad but I'm no longer an ASL player. I do still however have a huge amount of ATS counters and the rule book , and I fancy buying RF in order to convert scenarios to ATS.

There used to be a website called On The Table which featured an outline of how to do such conversions but sadly that site has now gone. I've tried asking this question on the Critical Hit forums but my posts don't appear as the owner of CH won't let me post without being moderated by him. It seems that asking if an MMP ASL product can be converted to ATS is not something he wants on his forums. Well, whatever.

Does anyone know where to find the guide for the conversion, I'd love to engage in some ATS Stalingrad carnage on excellent MMP maps.

 
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Brian McCue
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You could always buy the ATS Stalingrad game ...
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Mo Caraher
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In my experience it's not worth the effort. There are so many subtle things that prevent a straight-up insertion of the nearest ATS equivalent units to what is indicated on the ASL scenario card. It really doesn't take much deviation to throw a scenario out of balance and playtesting a conversion endlessly isn't my idea of A Good Time. I have so many unplayed ATS scenarios I'm happy to work my way through those before I undertake another conversion.

Just my 2ø.
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Ian Borrows
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Thanks for the replies. I'm going to get the latest incarnation of the Stalingrad ATS module (Tractor Works) but I don't think it is half as substantial as the forthcoming Red Factories from MMP. I'm just looking for more cardboard carnage in the ruins.
 
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Michael Olsen
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If you do find the convertion outline, please consider posting here, since I am also looking for it. I got lots of ASL I am not playing, and would like to use it with the ATS robot. Thanks.
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Ian Borrows
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Will do. I don't hold out much hope that as the only place I ever saw them was on the ATS On The Table website, back in the day when ATS seemed to have a stronger, more thriving community. There is no trace of the conversion system anywhere on the web that I've been able to find.
 
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Nerijus S.
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I see the owner of that website is active on BGG - you can try dropping him a message:

Todd Larsen
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Andrew Stewart
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Michael_Olsen wrote:
If you do find the convertion outline, please consider posting here, since I am also looking for it. I got lots of ASL I am not playing, and would like to use it with the ATS robot. Thanks.


See this thread here

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1196302/converting-asl-scen...

There's a link to a wayback page for SOME of ATS On the Table - the conversion outline is there. NOTE cut & paste the whole link line - the part link didn't seem to work.
 
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Andrew Stewart
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Biosphere wrote:
Thanks for the replies. I'm going to get the latest incarnation of the Stalingrad ATS module (Tractor Works) but I don't think it is half as substantial as the forthcoming Red Factories from MMP. I'm just looking for more cardboard carnage in the ruins.


You posted on this thread

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/23841291#23841291

so you know the issues with current Critical Hit product.
I would seriously not bother. At least one of the Streets of Stalingrad scenarios is unplayable - victory conditions are impossible.

Better off being patient & saving money for Red Factories
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Andrew Stewart
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moly19 wrote:
It really doesn't take much deviation to throw a scenario out of balance and playtesting a conversion endlessly isn't my idea of A Good Time.


But seriously, you know ATS scenarios show little evidence of any play testing anyway, right - so I don't think balance would be affected in any meaningful waylaugh

 
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Ian Borrows
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Jherek Carnelian wrote:
moly19 wrote:
It really doesn't take much deviation to throw a scenario out of balance and playtesting a conversion endlessly isn't my idea of A Good Time.


But seriously, you know ATS scenarios show little evidence of any play testing anyway, right - so I don't think balance would be affected in any meaningful waylaugh



Exactly what I was thinking. I've played some astounding good games of ATS and some where I've found myself wondering what level of play testing was put in to others. I've had entire modules where I've feel just about every scenario was cobbled together and put out there because it looks good but ends up playing awful. The first Berlin module is a fine example of the former point, the second Berlin game had what seemed to be a recreation of elements of the final moments of the Downfall movie, took ages to set up and was dull and pointless. CH quality control is one reason I've veered away from buying any new modules for years.
 
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Mo Caraher
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Jherek Carnelian wrote:
moly19 wrote:
It really doesn't take much deviation to throw a scenario out of balance and playtesting a conversion endlessly isn't my idea of A Good Time.


But seriously, you know ATS scenarios show little evidence of any play testing anyway, right - so I don't think balance would be affected in any meaningful waylaugh



Played a lot of ATS, have you?
I ask because there's a smiley there, so I cannot say if you're having a laugh or being serious.

I've not encountered many balance issues with ATS scenarios.
Where I have had trouble is in ATS titles/scenarios that are conversions from their parallel ASL-Comp releases. Again, it's not balance, usually, but sloppy errors like leaving in ASL-related SSRs or terms that have no real counterpart in ATS. Nothing that cannot be intuited, but unforced errors, nonetheless.
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Ian Borrows
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As for me, I have played a lot of ATS and some scenarios are badly written up, have starting positions that don't make sense, victory conditions that are not possible to achieve, and some which are dull to try and play. But then I've played others which a joy from beginning to end (The largest scenario in Nordic Twilight, Parker's Crossroads, the campaign game of Berlin 1, and Bloody Omaha).

ATS can very inconsistent and quite a mixed bag. Buying the games can be a lucky dip unless a prospective purchaser can find reviews.
 
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Berserker in peace
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I think it's still worth the effort to explore how conversion can work. It can be a fun meta-game to consider the amount of changes needed to convert between the two systems (such as MG), given the same scale and the (supposedly) same historical backdrops, and even the same map.

Anyhow, here is a backup copy from http://www3.telus.net/pub

**************************************************************************
US Bar Gunner, add 1 BAR to every 3 or 4 squads.

German Panzerfausts available Oct 43, add 1 Pf to every 3 or 4 squads, more in 1945.

ATMMs may be added if included in the original OBs or SSRs

ASL AP Mines should be x 1/4 to arrive at ATS amount.

ASL victory points totals are roughly 75% of ATS victory point totals.

Leaders
an ASL leader with a –1 or less modifier = ATS 117
an ASL leader with a -2 or greater modifier = ATS 118

Exchange all emplacements, non MGs weapons, tanks, artillery, charges, etc. + anything else straight across and between ASL and ATS.

Crops hexes are considered harvested in any scenarios dated between October to June or as per SSR.

For Squads and MGs…the goal is to keep the number of squads the same as the original scenario and use MGs to balance the GF ratio. This will keep the size of the forces roughly the same as the original as well as any squad related VCs or SSRs.

ASL GF total - for each side
1. total the GF and number of squads at each morale level
2. total the GF and number of each type of MGs, (GF x ROF x # of each type of MG)
3. total the Squad GF and the MG GF, this is total GF for each force.
4. determine the % of the small force divided by the large force. ie less than 100% ATS GF totals

For the large force
5. replace the ASL squads with an equal number of the correct morale level ATS squads
6. total the GF for all squads
7. replace the ASL MGs with the correct number and type of ATS MG
8. total the GF for all MGs
9. total the Squad GF and the MG GF, this is the new total GF for the large force.

For the smaller force
10. multiply the total GF for the larger force from step 9 by the force % from step 4
11. the total from step 10 is the new target total for the smaller force
12. replace the ASL squads with an equal number of the correct morale level ATS squads
13. total the GF for all squads
14. replace the ASL MGs with the correct number and type of ATS MG
15. total the GF for all MGs
16. total the Squad GF and the MG GF, this is your beginning total GF for the smaller force
17. if the total from step 10 is within 5 GF of step 16 you are finished converting Squads and MGs
18. if the total is more than 5 GF difference then add or subtract a number of MGs based on total GF (GF x ROF x # of each type of MG) to adjust the GF of the smaller force to the total in step 11. Generally try and keep at least one type of each MG present in the mix.

Try and keep the MG strengths the same ratio between at start groups and any reinforcement groups. This gives you a max force to start from for the larger force and adjust the smaller force underneath that. A leader can be added to adjust as well, estimate 10-15 GF for a 117 etc…
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Ian Borrows
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That's excellent, thanks for posting.
 
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