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Dominion» Forums » General

Subject: Considering it but... rss

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Michel Velleman
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Dominion (not even) newb here...

I've played and loved a few deck builders in the past but now I'm looking to present that mechanic to newer/older board gamers. Of course, the poster child for this category is Dominion, and it is available in French, which is a necessity for my francophone (low functioning in English) friends AND the them is perfect (closer to reality is better for them).

BUT I'm worried about all the comments or observations stating that "it's getting long in the tooth"; "it's showing it's age", "there are better deck-builders out there", etc.

Since I'm the only one buying/bringing games to the group, I'm basically worried of investing in a game solely for the group that would quickly lose it's luster, or would feel antiquated quickly AND would maybe take up valuable space that could be filled by better games and not being played out way too soon.

What do you think?
 
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Chaddyboy
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I still don't think a better deck-builder has been made.
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Jon Vallerand
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Personally, I think as far as pure Deckbuilders are concerned, Dominion has not been surpassed. Many prefer Thunderstone for its theme, but if Dominion's theme is closer to what you want, then that is great. That being said, you don't have to buy all 10 boxes: Intrigue is the better starter set, and the consensus seems to be that Prosperity is the best expansion (although I prefer Dark Ages). Starting out with Intrigue alone can provide you with plenty of game, and enough to know if your group will tire out about it.

That being said, many games have used deckbuilding as a gear in the larger machine, and are much better than their grandpa: Concordia, Lewis & Clark, Rococo and A Few Acres of Snow are the best in that category, if you ask me.
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Colm McCarthy
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chaddyboy_2000 wrote:
I still don't think a better deck-builder has been made.


Here here! All other deck-builders are entirely unnecessary. Only Dominion's shadow, not its teeth, grow longer with every new expansion.
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Chris
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It's still fine, but remember that the objective of this deck builder is not to defeat the evil emperor, build a wonderful cathedral or anything... it's to buy the most green cards. It's pure mechanism and usually feels like it. But it's good mechanism.
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Jon Vallerand
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TheRocketSurgeon wrote:
It's still fine, but remember that the objective of this deck builder is not to defeat the evil emperor, build a wonderful cathedral or anything... it's to buy the most green cards. It's pure mechanism and usually feels like it. But it's good mechanism.


Since the game is pure engine building, a game where you build an actual car would probably have made more sense.
 
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Colm McCarthy
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TheRocketSurgeon wrote:
...remember that the objective of this deck builder is not to defeat the evil emperor, build a wonderful cathedral or anything... it's to buy the most green cards...


The goal is to buy the most green land cards...in order to have the most land...or the greatest, oh what's the word?...dominion.
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Chris
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colmmccarthy wrote:
TheRocketSurgeon wrote:
...remember that the objective of this deck builder is not to defeat the evil emperor, build a wonderful cathedral or anything... it's to buy the most green cards...


The goal is to buy the most green land cards...in order to have the most land...or the greatest, oh what's the word?...dominion.

No it's not, and you know it. Buy cards. win.
 
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Colm McCarthy
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TheRocketSurgeon wrote:
colmmccarthy wrote:
TheRocketSurgeon wrote:
...remember that the objective of this deck builder is not to defeat the evil emperor, build a wonderful cathedral or anything... it's to buy the most green cards...


The goal is to buy the most green land cards...in order to have the most land...or the greatest, oh what's the word?...dominion.

No it's not, and you know it. Buy cards. win.


Yes. Buy land cards and win by having the best collection of land cards...or the best, oh what's that word again?.
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Matthew Cordeiro
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I've been playing it on a regular basis for 6 years now, and it's still fun. Don't worry about all the expansions. Get them one at a time if and when you're ready for them. Though, you may want to wait just a bit to pick up the base game, as a second edition with some newer/better cards is coming out soon.
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Richard Sampson
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Dominion is a great game as long as you don't mind the pasted on theme. I do think newer entries Star Realms have made improvements to the genre, but Dominion still holds its own.

That being said they are about to release a 2nd edition of the English version with updated art and some card replacements. You may want to look into if there will be a French edition released as well and if so, wait to pick that up instead.
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Chris Schumann
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I recommend for almost every game ever published that you try before you buy. In the case of Dominion, you can play the digital version of the base game for free at http://playdominion.com. There are versions for your browser, for iOS, Android, Windows, OSX, and Linux.

You can pay for expansions, but a new version is coming out in January.
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Jared H
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I find those comments totally bizarre. If anything, other deck builders, even good ones, look rather clumsy next to Dominion. Some may have a richer theme, but mechanically Dominion is as close to flawless as it gets.
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David Lude
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Looking at the Stats, this game has the most total plays of any game on BGG. It's simple to learn, with unmatched replay-ability. I still play it several times per month, albeit with all the expansions. Still the best and least luck based deck-builder out there. Unless the 'black market' is part of the current kingdom set-up, no-one gets a lucky unique card, as with many other knock-offs.

Get it! Still the best!
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Morten K
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I agree with the above but you posted in the Dominion forum so of course these are the replies you are most likely to get here. Two caveats though. Don't play it with more than three because downtime becomes too much and you'll have to get at least an expansion quite soon. More expansions is better. The vanilla cards become dull fairly quickly imo.
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Michel Velleman
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Tigrillo wrote:
I agree with the above but you posted in the Dominion forum so of course these are the replies you are most likely to get here. Two caveats though. Don't play it with more than three because downtime becomes too much and you'll have to get at least an expansion quite soon. More expansions is better. The vanilla cards become dull fairly quickly imo.


How about 4 players, total? Does it slow down too much or is it still a agreeable time with this number of players?
 
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Michel Velleman
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Thanks for all the info, it did assuage my fear based on its age.

I'll see if the 2nd edition in French is scheduled to be available soon.

Also, maybe I know exactly what I was doing by asking for a buy recommendation on a board of fans of the game !
 
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Runcible Spoon
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Tigrillo wrote:
I agree with the above but you posted in the Dominion forum so of course these are the replies you are most likely to get here.


Agreed.

This is like showing up to a wine tasting at a vineyard and asking if anyone likes wine.

I think a more useful process would be to go to pages for the other deckbuilders you are considering and ask why that particularly deckbuilder is better than its competitors (which could include dominion).

For example:
- Thunderstone has co-op - some people like that

- Thunderstone has the epic mode (which many have praised include the dice tower crew) - some people like that

- Star Realms has lots of direct conflict - some people like that

- Ascension has a dynamic card row which engages people in a richer tactical setting - some people like that

...and so on.

There is no truth to any claims that "Deckbuilding Game X is for ever and always the best" <- this is low quality thinking

The variety of different deckbuilders out there all do different things and it depends on what you are looking for. This is an obvious sign that that the market for deckbuilding games is vastly larger than what dominion delivers.

Moreover, I would look for people who think differently than the Dominion Cheerleaders. You might find a more useful and critical lens from those who don't care for dominion or for whom it has grown long in tooth etc.

I think your selection criteria regarding language, game availability and lack of any fantastic or sci-fi settings will probably drive your decision more than any of the other things discussed so far.

I don't know if Trains has a french edition or not but your friends might (or might not) like the theme more, dominion is totally pasted on fantasy Trains is more realistic.
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Runcible Spoon
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Meric68 wrote:
How about 4 players, total? Does it slow down too much or is it still a agreeable time with this number of players?


Slow. Deckbuilders as a genre tend to slow quite a bit as you add more players.

Games with simultaneous action selection (race for the galaxy, san juan) or follow the leader stuff (glory to rome, tiny epic galaxies) are better (...better in terms of speed) with more players rather than deckbuilding games.

Glory to Rome with 5 is great, Dominion with 5 is awful.

Drafting games are relatively fast with more players (a strength) but much more chaotic and random with more players (a weakness). I prefer lower player counts in drafting but others feel differently.
 
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Matt E
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The acceptable number of players is really up to personal preference. I think 4-player Dominion is fine, but I would only play with 5 players if every player was an expert. I would never play a 6-player game of Dominion.
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ackmondual
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Meric68 wrote:
Dominion (not even) newb here...

I've played and loved a few deck builders in the past but now I'm looking to present that mechanic to newer/older board gamers. Of course, the poster child for this category is Dominion, and it is available in French, which is a necessity for my francophone (low functioning in English) friends AND the them is perfect (closer to reality is better for them).

BUT I'm worried about all the comments or observations stating that "it's getting long in the tooth"; "it's showing it's age", "there are better deck-builders out there", etc.

Since I'm the only one buying/bringing games to the group, I'm basically worried of investing in a game solely for the group that would quickly lose it's luster, or would feel antiquated quickly AND would maybe take up valuable space that could be filled by better games and not being played out way too soon.

What do you think?


What are your options to sell the game? In person (friends, family, any other gamers of folks who'd other be interested in gaming), or online (you're here on BGG and obviously have internet access, but some folks would still rather not deal with online selling, or even posting an ad online for local sales like if you guys have a version of Craigslist). I feel odd about starting off the post with hocking it, but knowing that you have options in case it doesn't work shouldn't be overlooked.


FWIW, if you guys can get at least 10 plays out of it, it should be worth it. Not too hard to do since it's easy to get in multiple games per session (games go quick, and it's easier to do back-to-back games since cards are already out and set up). If it does get stale, which it has for my groups, an expansion or 2 can easily double or triple the amount of "fresh plays".

It really is a beautiful game, but I've heard valid criticisms that it's just an exercise to draw as many cards and possible and generate coins, and ensuring you have enough +Actions to get in all the action cards you'd like to. Generically, this describes a lot of eurogames, but tis is true that for some folks, they simply don't enjoy the game. The appeal factor just doesn't "click" for them (not to be confused with the "click" that happens when you grasp strategy).

If possible, consider trying this in digital form. Androminion should still be out there (if not on Google Play), and Making Fun's version IIRC should have the base game for free.
 
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Michel Velleman
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Runcible Spoon wrote:
Tigrillo wrote:
I agree with the above but you posted in the Dominion forum so of course these are the replies you are most likely to get here.


Agreed.

This is like showing up to a wine tasting at a vineyard and asking if anyone likes wine.

I think a more useful process would be to go to pages for the other deckbuilders you are considering and ask why that particularly deckbuilder is better than its competitors (which could include dominion).

For example:
- Thunderstone has co-op - some people like that

- Thunderstone has the epic mode (which many have praised include the dice tower crew) - some people like that

- Star Realms has lots of direct conflict - some people like that

- Ascension has a dynamic card row which engages people in a richer tactical setting - some people like that

...and so on.

There is no truth to any claims that "Deckbuilding Game X is for ever and always the best" <- this is low quality thinking

The variety of different deckbuilders out there all do different things and it depends on what you are looking for. This is an obvious sign that that the market for deckbuilding games is vastly larger than what dominion delivers.

Moreover, I would look for people who think differently than the Dominion Cheerleaders. You might find a more useful and critical lens from those who don't care for dominion or for whom it has grown long in tooth etc.

I think your selection criteria regarding language, game availability and lack of any fantastic or sci-fi settings will probably drive your decision more than any of the other things discussed so far.

I don't know if Trains has a french edition or not but your friends might (or might not) like the theme more, dominion is totally pasted on fantasy Trains is more realistic.


I had not even thought about Trains ! I'll look it up, thanks!
 
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Dale Stephenson
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LastFootnote wrote:
The acceptable number of players is really up to personal preference. I think 4-player Dominion is fine, but I would only play with 5 players if every player was an expert. I would never play a 6-player game of Dominion.


And by contrast, I've played hundreds of 6-player games of Dominion. Dominion increases time with each player added (not at all uncommon for turn-based games), but only you know how much that will bother you. The mechanics of Dominion work well with any player count, and the increase time is approximately linear. (With more players you're less likely to be waiting on a shuffle, but if attacks are available and being purchased you're more likely to be attacked on each turn.)
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Runcible Spoon
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People are 100% entitled to their preferences, but not all preferences are equally distributed among gamers.

LastFootnote wrote:
The acceptable number of players is really up to personal preference.


Agreed.

But, I would go one step further and say that that there are trends among preferences that could be helpful here.

If we look at the data for player counts for dominion we find:

With more than more than 4:

Best with 2.4% (18 votes)
Recommend 20.6% (152 votes)
Don't Recommend 77.0% (569 votes)

With 3 players we see a different trend:

Best with 38.4% (455 votes)
Recommend 55.6% (659 votes)
Don't Recommend 6.1% (72 votes)

So clearly these are matters of preference, but there are trends in the preference data. If you are a fan of dominion with 5p or 6p (i.e. it is best with 5p or 6p) there is a very tiny group who agrees with that statement and a very large group who disagrees.
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Chris
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Meric68 wrote:
Runcible Spoon wrote:
Tigrillo wrote:
I agree with the above but you posted in the Dominion forum so of course these are the replies you are most likely to get here.


Agreed.

This is like showing up to a wine tasting at a vineyard and asking if anyone likes wine.

I think a more useful process would be to go to pages for the other deckbuilders you are considering and ask why that particularly deckbuilder is better than its competitors (which could include dominion).

For example:
- Thunderstone has co-op - some people like that

- Thunderstone has the epic mode (which many have praised include the dice tower crew) - some people like that

- Star Realms has lots of direct conflict - some people like that

- Ascension has a dynamic card row which engages people in a richer tactical setting - some people like that

...and so on.

There is no truth to any claims that "Deckbuilding Game X is for ever and always the best" <- this is low quality thinking

The variety of different deckbuilders out there all do different things and it depends on what you are looking for. This is an obvious sign that that the market for deckbuilding games is vastly larger than what dominion delivers.

Moreover, I would look for people who think differently than the Dominion Cheerleaders. You might find a more useful and critical lens from those who don't care for dominion or for whom it has grown long in tooth etc.

I think your selection criteria regarding language, game availability and lack of any fantastic or sci-fi settings will probably drive your decision more than any of the other things discussed so far.

I don't know if Trains has a french edition or not but your friends might (or might not) like the theme more, dominion is totally pasted on fantasy Trains is more realistic.


I had not even thought about Trains ! I'll look it up, thanks!


If you do,please please also look at it's sibling Automobiles, which is soo much better and still mechanically absolutely a deck builder, despite the lack of cards. I've not seen another deck builder be bother so pure and also apply the output of that deck to something so obviously thematic and engaging.

Oh also on the language side IF there's no french option, it's WAY easier to proxy as you don't need piles and piles of cards, just 10 for an entire game.
 
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