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Subject: The VP Debate: Quick Assessment rss

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Steven Woodcock
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No question Pence completely owned Kaine throughout...he was calm, collected, looked very Presidential, carefully and calmly deflected Kaine's continual interruptions.

Kaine mostly interrupted and kept trying to bring up Trump's taxes....by my count he interrupted at least 20 times to Pence's 2 or 3. He seemed less comfortable than Pence.

I did think Pence handled questions on the economy and was good at pointing at Hillary's many failures overseas.

Kaine did a pretty good job during the last 10 minutes or so when discussing racial issues and put Pence off his mark a bit; points there.

I'm hearing many folks bashing the moderator but honestly I thought she was head and shoulders better and more even handed than Lester "Did I Do Good Hillary?" Holt.

More later; I need my beauty sleep and Odin knows you don't want me to miss out on that!


Ferret
 
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Josh
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Pence's lies were rolling hard in the brief segment I saw. I mean he did deliver them well, but man, it was hard to keep up with all of them. You are probably right about presentation and looking 'presidential' Pence has the stiff man look, while Kaine is more the goofy uncle type. Both have their advantages in negotiation.
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Trey Chambers
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It's pretty clear Pence won on style, but maybe that was Kaine's plan all along. A Pyrrhic victory for Team Trump, if you will.

People will likely soon forget that Kaine was a bit rude, but the media narrative until Sunday's debate will be "Is Trump indefensible?"

If his VP can't even defend him, who can?
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David Hoffman
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Simple assessment:

Pence beat Kaine

Kaine beat Trump

Also, reports are that Trump is unhappy that Pence's performance makes him (Trump) look bad by comparison. How presidential.
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Jon Badolato
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Kaine was definitely more aggressive. I'm ok with that as most of what he had to say was dead on accurate about Trump and Pence. Some people will find his interruptions rude. Pence had a more calm "presidential demeanor" which comes off as more steady, but every time he opened his mouth a really cheesy defense of Trump was uttered which Kaine felt compelled to take down.

Verdict: Pence for calm demeanor, Kaine for making more points favorable to his side. Either way the debate won't nudge the results too much in either direction.

Best line of the night:

Pence: Trump is not a career politician. He's a businessman. He's built a multi million dollar business...

Kaine: How do you know that, he hasn't released his taxes. Nixon released his taxes under audit. Trumps not even living up to the Nixon standard...

Kapow !!
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Chris
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So once again the debate helps affirm people's preconceived emotional decision of who they will vote for. thumbsup
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Shawn Fox
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The last time I checked, the VP doesn't matter. I've never watched any of the VP debates because who cares.
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C Bazler
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I did not watch the debate. So did one of them prove he is better at sitting on the Senate floor doing nothing than the other?

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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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If it were a personality contest, pence wins hands down. On a substance strance kaine won handily. On cbs they had a panel of undecideds afterwards and it was depressing to see them all sucked in by charisma and kind of glazed over on the actual words. Having said that, the GOP would be far better off if Pence was leading the ticket. I felt bad for him, he has the impossible task of layering nuance on top of Trumps absolutist naive nonsense and offensive comments. It's no wonder he didn't have much substance, how do you give substance to Trump policies without sounding like a hateful fascist bigot? Pence is a nice guy and all, but he's no miracle worker.
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jeremy cobert
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Ferretman wrote:
Kaine mostly interrupted and kept trying to bring up Trump's taxes....


This was all I remember. Every time that Muppet looking Kaine opened his mouth it was about Trumps tax returns.

Also Pence looked and acted like he was applying to be the president while Kaine came across as disgruntled high school teacher.
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Josh
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jeremycobert wrote:
Ferretman wrote:
Kaine mostly interrupted and kept trying to bring up Trump's taxes....


This was all I remember. Every time that Muppet looking Kaine opened his mouth it was about Trumps tax returns.

Also Pence looked and acted like he was applying to be the president while Kaine came across as disgruntled high school teacher.


Shame for the GOP Pence isn't applying to be president.
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David Dearlove
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Shadrach wrote:
jeremycobert wrote:
Ferretman wrote:
Kaine mostly interrupted and kept trying to bring up Trump's taxes....


This was all I remember. Every time that Muppet looking Kaine opened his mouth it was about Trumps tax returns.

Also Pence looked and acted like he was applying to be the president while Kaine came across as disgruntled high school teacher.


Shame for the GOP Pence isn't applying to be president.

Not this electoral cycle.
 
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Josh
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DavidDearlove wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
jeremycobert wrote:
Ferretman wrote:
Kaine mostly interrupted and kept trying to bring up Trump's taxes....


This was all I remember. Every time that Muppet looking Kaine opened his mouth it was about Trumps tax returns.

Also Pence looked and acted like he was applying to be the president while Kaine came across as disgruntled high school teacher.


Shame for the GOP Pence isn't applying to be president.

Not this electoral cycle.


Yeah, but playing his hand now gives the D 4 years to prepare. Pence does have 'dirt' on him(from a political point of view) when he got stuck with the pro-life/choice thing he dug his heels in and took the diminishing position on a very polarizing topic.
 
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10/₆
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I think Pence won the debate. I am just not sure who's ticket he's on. Who is he running with again?
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Trey Chambers
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MWChapel wrote:
I think Pence won the debate. I am just not sure who's ticket he's on. Who is he running with again?


He must be Johnson's VP. I heard it was some Republican governor, I guess it's Pence.

Pence appears to have never heard of that Trump guy.
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fightcitymayor
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TheChin! wrote:
Pence is a nice guy and all...
Umm... no.

http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2016/07/mike-pences-top-seven-hom...

Quote:
1. Supporting a constitutional amendment to ban marriage equality

In 2006, then-Rep. Pence told 100 of his fellow Republicans that he supported a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex weddings. Or as Pence put it, supported “God’s plan” in the face of the destruction of civilization. “Societal collapse was always brought about following an advent of the deterioration of marriage and family,” Pence complained.

2. Signed a bill to jail same-sex couples for applying for a marriage license

In an effort to make a bad idea even worse, as governor Pence signed a bill in 2013 that would jail same-sex couples in Indiana who applied for a marriage license. To prove that he wasn’t singling gay people out, Pence was also willing to jail marriage clerks who supplied a license or clergy who performed the wedding.

3. Wanted to divert funding from HIV prevention to conversion therapy

This one’s a two-fer: as a Congressional candidate in 2000, Pence wrapped two awful ideas into a single dreadful proposal. He wanted to ensure that “federal dollars were no longer being given to organizations that celebrate and encourage the types of behaviors that facilitate the spreading of the HIV virus.” So where should the money go? “Resources should be directed toward those institutions which provide assistance to those seeking to change their sexual behavior.” In other words, conversion therapy.

4. Opposed repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell

Longing for the good old days of complete invisibility for gay people, Pence predictably ignored the preponderance of evidence in support of repealing Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. Instead, Pence put himself out there as a leading opponent of the policy change. “There’s no question to mainstream homosexuality within active duty military would have an impact on unit cohesion,” Pence argued, dismissing the repeal as “some liberal domestic social agenda.”

5. Complained about the passage of the Matthew Shepard Hate Crimes bill

In Pence’s ideal world, there would be zero protections. So it’s no surprise that he groused when the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes bill was signed into law in 2009. Pence didn’t cite legal objections. Instead, he complained that it advanced a “radical social agenda” and would have “a chilling effect on religious expression, from the pulpits, in our temples, in our mosques and in our churches.”

6. Served on the board of an antigay group

Pence has had a close relationship with the antigay leadership in his state. He served on the board of the Indiana Family Institute, an affiliate of Focus on the Family, which has been in the forefront of attacks on LGBT rights in the state, including a state constitutional amendment banning marriage equality. Thanks to its connections to Pence and other Republicans, IFI has been the recipient of funding for the state’s “Health Marriage” program. The former head of IFI has served as an aide to Pence both in Congress and the state house and as a campaign consultant.

7. Argued that passing ENDA would ban Bibles from the workplace

Of course, in Congress Pence voted against federal workplace protections. What was unique was his reasoning, which was that ENDA would discriminate against Christians. To comply with the law, Pence claimed, “the employer has to ban employees from having a Bible at the workplace for their break time, or displaying Bible verses.” Foreshadowing the Indiana religious liberty law, he went on: “We must stand for the right of every American to practice their faith according to the dictates of their conscience, whether it be in the public square or in the workplace.”
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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fightcitymayor wrote:
Umm... no.
I meant personality wise. Serial killers often are nice guys also. That they have a loathsome world view doesn't mean they don't have charisma. If he had been asked about his own indefensible views, I'm sure he would have been just as nice avoiding the questions and giving undecideds a warm fuzzy.
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Sam I am
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I almost wonder if Kaine's performance was to get DJT amped up to attack mode on Sunday? Get him thinking that he needs to have back-at-ya attacks for the town hall (a bad move), give him fodder to stay "off script".
 
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James Myers
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fightcitymayor wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
Pence is a nice guy and all...
Umm... no.

http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2016/07/mike-pences-top-seven-hom...


Yeah, but Pence only hates us queers.

Trump hates brown people too!

Ergo, Pence is nicer than Trump (because Trump is a really nice guy, almost the nicest you'll ever meet,) so Pence is nice.
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Xuzu Horror
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The one thing I had liked about Pence is that he often tried to tone down Trump's message.

Thus, I did not fully tie Pence to Trump. Though I was never a fan on many of his social stances, I still had liked some of his values such as when he wrote:

https://craigfehrman.com/2013/01/06/mike-pences-confessions-...

But, when he tried to pass off that Trump didn't have an insult driven campaign, I disagreed but saw how he could twist it (such as feigning that the real drive of the campaign was something else).

Trump's constant insults are definitely the focus for much of the nation (obviously not all though).

But, that wasn't my biggest issue. When he said flat out multiple times that Trump didn't say things that he said, that is when I was turned off.

Pence said the following:
Quote:
I think it's inarguable that Vladimir Putin has been a stronger leader in his country than Barack Obama has been in this country.


And to now pretend he'd never said that is shady. If he didn't mean it, he should apologize (which likely would not make Trump happy).

I understand why Pence did not try to defend things said by Trump because you cannot really defend those outrageous statements.

But, flat out lies about what you say is awful too.

This isn't media twist; these are quotes.

If Pence is going to dodge questions, fine. But, if he's going to start lying, the respect I did have for him takes a huge dive.

He's not moderating Trump's message as I had hoped; he's just trying to twist his message into a way that will win, in any way he can. Before it was twisting, but now lies have been added to the mix.
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Mac Mcleod
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Steve Cates
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Terwox wrote:
fightcitymayor wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
Pence is a nice guy and all...
Umm... no.

http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2016/07/mike-pences-top-seven-hom...


Yeah, but Pence only hates us queers.

Trump hates brown people too!

Ergo, Pence is nicer than Trump (because Trump is a really nice guy, almost the nicest you'll ever meet,) so Pence is nice.
Is Indiana arresting and throwing queers off buildings like Hillary's foreign donors?

Edit: oh yeah, indiana just made it legal for a business to not profit from the sale of theoretical pizzas at a theoretical gay wedding that would go against their religious beliefs.
 
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Professor of Pain
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I'm for Clinton this election and I definitely think Pence won in terms of demeanor and presentation. Kaine came off as a bit of an ass. However, that is largely irrelevant. All the media talk yesterday was about Pence lying and being unable or unwilling to defend Trump. Tim Kaine’s strategy was not to talk about himself or Mike Pence, rather, his strategy was:

1. aggressively go after Donald Trump, get your attack points in (in quick soundbites usable by the media, by the by)

2. go after Donald Trump, make Pence defend Trump or prove he can’t

3. ignore Pence and his record. Go after Trump. Remind people of every odious thing Trump has said.

Here is how VP debates work: if your base is more pumped by the debate than theirs, you won.


As a result of Pence's inability or unwillingness to defend Trump, you get this:
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Steve Cates
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Elfbane wrote:
I'm for Clinton this election and I definitely think Pence won in terms of demeanor and presentation. Kaine came off as a bit of an ass. However, that is largely irrelevant. All the media talk yesterday was about Pence lying and being unable or unwilling to defend Trump. Tim Kaine’s strategy was not to talk about himself or Mike Pence, rather, his strategy was:

1. aggressively go after Donald Trump, get your attack points in (in quick soundbites usable by the media, by the by)

2. go after Donald Trump, make Pence defend Trump or prove he can’t

3. ignore Pence and his record. Go after Trump. Remind people of every odious thing Trump has said.

Here is how VP debates work: if your base is more pumped by the debate than theirs, you won.


As a result of Pence's inability or unwillingness to defend Trump, you get this:

Kaine twisted every Trump insult to make it look as racist and sexist and possible it was super annoying. He didn't say all Mexicans are rapists go read the actual quote. Would you think that every Mexican upon the age of maturity suddenly rapes someone? He was talking about many of those at the border that are involved in illegal trafficking. He in fact said they aren't sending their best. That shows right there that he's saying they aren't ALL rapists. The quote gets cut to "They're rapists" and totally ignores the context and next sentence. Kaine knows this but continues to distort.
Quote:
"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."
 
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Trey Chambers
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ironcates wrote:

Kaine twisted every Trump insult to make it look as racist and sexist and possible it was super annoying.


Um, he didn't have to do much twisting.
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