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Josh
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This is funny because it hearkens back to one of my first-ever posts on BGG when the issue was Battlestar Galactica civilian ships.
But the re-randomization of Cheat Tokens is something that happens quite a bit more frequently and there are a lot more of them.

Obviously since the chits are symmetrical it's difficult to draw them blindly from a bag and make sure you aren't looking at the value side (even though, technically speaking, you could maybe feel that the "skull side" is a little more rounded most of the time).

But has anyone come up with a more clever hack for randomizing cheat-tokens (and to a lesser extent, Contracts) without sliding around the table every time you put one back?

I'm thinking about just using a d6 on each player to track their number of cheats, and then drawing them appropriately from a bag when they're supposed to be looked-at (either by special abilities or the Scoreboard Phase).

But I'm wondering if anyone has done anything different.
Printed Cheating Tokens up as cards?
Created more dials?
Bought 2 sets and sharpied over half the tokens?
Some other proxying measure?

Am I overthinking? Yes.
But I feel like there's got to be a better way.

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What do you mean by sliding around the table?

Couldn't you just put them on a dinner plate and hand the plate to the person?
 
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J M
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A Deck of mini cards might not be a bad idea.
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Trevor Taylor
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If you don't like it, use a bunch of skulls or something for the match-ups...

(Like these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Small-3cm-Silver-Halloween-Scary-H...)

...and then just draw a cheat token from a bag/cup for each when resolving.

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Josh
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therealtheshader wrote:
What do you mean by sliding around the table?

Couldn't you just put them on a dinner plate and hand the plate to the person?


I mean you have 30 small counters that need to be randomized face-down, and re-randomized every time one of them returns to the pot (pretty much the end of every round) so it's not so easy to track the Ejection Whistles etc.
This is supposed to be accomplished in the classic Fantasy Flight way of putting them all on a flat surface and sliding them around a bit.

Whether that's a table, a dinner plate, or the back of my dog, isn't relevant. It's still an unwieldy way to randomize things.

Although along the dinner plate lines, the randomization could be done by putting them around the outside edge of a rotating surface and spinning it, I guess. Not the worst idea.
 
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Chris Broggi
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I just draw them from a bag. It is very easy to tell by touch which side is which.
 
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Josh
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broggi wrote:
I just draw them from a bag. It is very easy to tell by touch which side is which.


You are a witch.
I tried this on my own as an experiment and I was correct just a little more than half of the time.
My fingers aren't that sensitive to the texture difference, and I can't trust other players to be any better. Not that I think they'd be deliberately real-cheating, but it's something else fiddly to worry about.


 
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Chris Broggi
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I'm amazed that you can't tell the difference. The tokens are rounded on the top edges. I just feel for that in the bag and then place them face down. Check if other members of your gaming group can tell the difference.
 
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Josh
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broggi wrote:
I'm amazed that you can't tell the difference. The tokens are rounded on the top edges. I just feel for that in the bag and then place them face down. Check if other members of your gaming group can tell the difference.


It's true, it could just be me with my guitar-calloused old fingers.
But if it doesn't work for me, then an alternative is still welcomed

I wish the chits themselves were left/right asymmetrical. That could solve the problem on its own.
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Brad Miller
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AceAceBaby wrote:
A Deck of mini cards might not be a bad idea.


I've been thinking about this solution for a while. Got some old TtR mini cards. With the game going OOP, I'm going to need something...
 
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Josh
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Windopaene wrote:
AceAceBaby wrote:
A Deck of mini cards might not be a bad idea.


I've been thinking about this solution for a while. Got some old TtR mini cards. With the game going OOP, I'm going to need something...


I actually assumed someone must have done this by now. Using the redundant Ticket to Ride mini cards as a base is awesome (I still have mine in shrink, because I bought 1910 at the same time as the base game).

Could it be done with artscow, using the actual graphics from the game? I'm guessing this would be a legal grey area, at least if it were released as a "public" template.
 
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Marc Nelson Jr.
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The base game gives you 25 tokens, and Sudden Death gives you 5 more.

So, make up a 5x5 or 6x5 table and roll two D6's, re-rolling any 5's on either roll (or just the second roll with the expansion).

But Foul Play adds 8 more cheat tokens, giving you 38 total. I would just toss a couple of '1' tokens and do a 6x6 table.
 
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Josh
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marcnelsonjr wrote:
So, make up a 5x5 or 6x5 table and roll two D6's, re-rolling any 5's on either roll (or just the second roll with the expansion).


This doesn't solve the problem of keeping the value of the cheat-token hidden.
If you find the result on a chart, then you know what it is.
If you pick a face-down token from a grid based on the die roll, then you still have to re-mix them when you return it to the pile, sufficiently so nobody can remember what the value of a given token is.

The whole goal -- the "minor annoyance" that I'm trying to address -- is to have something where you:
* Pick randomly from a pile of single-sided tokens.
* Can not know the value until you're told to flip it over.
* Have to return it to the pile and sufficiently re-randomize while they all remain face-down.

When the number of tokens is as large as 38, that's when it starts to make more sense to either:
A) Use cards or some other way to guarantee that you can draw in the right facing every time,
or
B) Only keep track of how many you have, and only draw random ones when someone is allowed to look at them.

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Marc Nelson Jr.
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jozxyqk wrote:
marcnelsonjr wrote:
So, make up a 5x5 or 6x5 table and roll two D6's, re-rolling any 5's on either roll (or just the second roll with the expansion).


This doesn't solve the problem of keeping the value of the cheat-token hidden.
If you find the result on a chart, then you know what it is.
If you pick a face-down token from a grid based on the die roll, then you still have to re-mix them when you return it to the pile, sufficiently so nobody can remember what the value of a given token is.

The whole goal -- the "minor annoyance" that I'm trying to address -- is to have something where you:
* Pick randomly from a pile of single-sided tokens.
* Can not know the value until you're told to flip it over.
* Have to return it to the pile and sufficiently re-randomize while they all remain face-down.

When the number of tokens is as large as 38, that's when it starts to make more sense to either:
A) Use cards or some other way to guarantee that you can draw in the right facing every time,
or
B) Only keep track of how many you have, and only draw random ones when someone is allowed to look at them.


Ah, right. Sorry, it's been a while since I played.

Yeah, hobbit-sized cards would seem to be the way to go.
 
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Jett Rink
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My group just puts them in a bag and draws them.
A couple of them can't tell the difference between the sides by feel, so how they do it is to pinch the token between thumb and forefinger and draw it out.
You can then see enough of the edge of the token to see which way the skull faces without seeing any of the value.

Apologies it's not the creative answer you were looking for. This is just how my group does it.

 
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Alan Castree
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I finally understand the issue!! Took me a while! (Kept thinking, "why can't they draw from the bag?")

Why not put a small glass bead on the player that cheated, then when resolving cheating tokens draw one from the bag for each player that has a glass bead on them. Think I might try this.
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Josh
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OK, I think I have a solution that will satisfy me, now that I've picked up Dead of Winter: The Long Night.
This is an expansion that replaces a lot of the Dead of Winter base-game components, or makes them irrelevant.

For Contracts, I will use 15 of the old "Helpless Survivor" tokens (which look like silhouettes of people, and were completely replaced by a different token in the expansion).

For Cheating Tokens, I will use about 30 of the "Zombie Tokens" (which obviously resemble zombie faces, and are mostly-unnecessary in DoW when you have both base+expansion).

So, when a manager would gain a Contract, they take a "Helpless Survivor". When a player would gain a Cheating Token, they take a "Zombie".
And then when either type of token would be revealed or looked-at for any reason, it gets replaced with the "real" equivalent taken out of a bag randomly.

In lieu of printing up cards, I think this works for me, and still "looks pretty", and it's kind of funny that zombies are responsible for all the cheating in Blood Bowl matches.
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Austin Andersen
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ACGalaga wrote:
I finally understand the issue!! Took me a while! (Kept thinking, "why can't they draw from the bag?")

Why not put a small glass bead on the player that cheated, then when resolving cheating tokens draw one from the bag for each player that has a glass bead on them. Think I might try this.


This is what we do, but with little cubes as they easier to squeeze into the already cramped box afterwards. We also have some empty dice bags that get filled with the tokens; so we can do a blind draw when needed.

In fact, we do this for all tokens that have something hidden information on the bottom.

If an effect allows a manager to peek the value, the "identity" of the cube is resolved immediately and then the actual token is placed face down replacing the cube.
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Josh
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Right, that's basically what I'm ending up doing, but I wanted it to be aesthetically nice as well
The Dead of Winter tokens seem like a perfect compromise.

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