$18.00
The Hotness
Games|People|Company
The Hotness has gone cold...
GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters: 120.79

7,270 Supporters

$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
45.8% of Goal | left

Support:

Recommend
3 
 Thumb up
 Hide
13 Posts

Unconditional Surrender! World War 2 in Europe» Forums » General

Subject: Unconditional Surrender on iPad? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
William Paulk
United States
Asheville
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Unconditional Surrender is a great game. I have only played it solitaire on Vassal. I continuously forget to do some things, mostly adjusting the production points after activating a unit. Also, I continuously have to refer to rules.
I just purchased and have been playing Carrier Battles of Guadalcanal on my iPad. I never played it as a boardgame before, but the description was right up my alley. That is, playing an old fashioned boardgame without having to account for all the adjustments. Even if you made the iPad version solitaire and/or hot seat it would be ideal. After that, linking up with a fellow player online? After that a version that pits human vs computer.
For me, this is the future of boardgames. I only play Vassal because the setup is done for me. Also, it looks great.
I was watching the 2 learning videos for Unconditional Surrender. What a slooooowwwwwww process of playing and trying to remind each other of all the minutiae. With today's technology let's use it and expand the audience for boardgames. What a way to bring even old games back to life.
The Carrier Battles game has incredible drama because you don't know when the Japs are gonna show up and blow your carrier, with planes on deck, out of the water until it's too late.
I'm a 51 year old solitaire only dude who longs for the days of vintage Avalon Hill games stocked on shelves, but converting games to iPad could be the next best thing.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Peter Kossits
Canada
Montreal
Quebec
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
billy28804 wrote:
but converting games to iPad could be the next best thing.


Except for the fact that software developers command 100,000$+ salaries and customers of iPad games usually consider 5$ ridiculously expensive.
It's tough for boardgame companies and developers to be excited about mobile games with this environment.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Whittemore
United States
Coronado
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Agree. It would have to be a labor of love.

This post did inspire me to go download Unity3D
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chad Schrieber
msg tools
mbmbmbmb
peterk1 wrote:
billy28804 wrote:
but converting games to iPad could be the next best thing.


Except for the fact that software developers command 100,000$+ salaries and customers of iPad games usually consider 5$ ridiculously expensive.
It's tough for boardgame companies and developers to be excited about mobile games with this environment.


I'd say the salary requirement you mention is a touch high, at least for entertainment software. My first gaming gig (granted...a long time ago) was $18k. I'd expect most game companies to be paying in the $50-70 range nowadays.

Not that it invalidates your point. But, depending on what you really wanted to do with it, it wouldn't be impossible. I was able to write a Windows app that shows the locations of all the pieces for Pax Britannica in about 15 hours. Double that, and you'd have a customized Vassal (drag/drop pieces, make nice stacks, etc.). But...computerizing the rules...I'd say that would take 500-600 hours, before any AI is introduced.

Someone wrote a networkable version of Europe Engulfed (no AI--hotseat or network multi-player) that was pretty impressive.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Øivind Karlsrud
Norway
Bjørkelangen
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Games I want to play on VASSAL: ASL, ASLSK, GMT CDG's I own
badge
Games I want to play on VASSAL: ASL, ASLSK, GMT CDG's I own
mbmbmbmbmb
trianglemoon wrote:
I'd say the salary requirement you mention is a touch high, at least for entertainment software. My first gaming gig (granted...a long time ago) was $18k. I'd expect most game companies to be paying in the $50-70 range nowadays.

Not that it invalidates your point. But, depending on what you really wanted to do with it, it wouldn't be impossible. I was able to write a Windows app that shows the locations of all the pieces for Pax Britannica in about 15 hours. Double that, and you'd have a customized Vassal (drag/drop pieces, make nice stacks, etc.). But...computerizing the rules...I'd say that would take 500-600 hours, before any AI is introduced.

Someone wrote a networkable version of Europe Engulfed (no AI--hotseat or network multi-player) that was pretty impressive.

I'm afraid you're underestimating how much time it takes to make a final product. I've been following the development of several iPad games, and it always takes a lot more time than people think. You are lucky when games are delayed by as little as a year. I think even Twilight Struggle was delayed about a year, and it was developed by an experienced developer like Playdek, and was a major Kickstarter success. You could also ask the guy who developed World in Flames for PC. That took at least 10 years, and it's still not finished, several years after it was released.

I have no inside information, it's just an observation after being disappointed by delay after delay.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Peter Kossits
Canada
Montreal
Quebec
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm the developer of the Baseball Highlights 2045 app. My company closed down early last year and I decided to give app programming from home a try rather than updating my CV and looking for interviews.

I'm closing in on 2 years of work on Baseball Highlights full time. It's a much, much simpler game than this and the price point that Unconditional Surrender would sell for does not balance well with how much more work it would be than doing an easier game.

But for someone who absolutely loves the boardgame with the talent and time. <????>

Let's not even talk about the ridiculous commissions (30%) the stores skim off the top and the crazy annual membership fee that one of the big companies charges to develop for their platform. If a dev has a 50/50 arrangement with GMT, Apple/Android get 30%, dev gets 35% and GMT gets 35%. Let's be really optimistic and say 10000 copies go at 10$ - the dev made 35k for what - 2-3 years of work?



3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Karl Ruppelt
United States
Olmsted Township
Ohio
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
peterk1 wrote:
I'm the developer of the Baseball Highlights 2045 app. My company closed down early last year and I decided to give app programming from home a try rather than updating my CV and looking for interviews.

I'm closing in on 2 years of work on Baseball Highlights full time. It's a much, much simpler game than this and the price point that Unconditional Surrender would sell for does not balance well with how much more work it would be than doing an easier game.

But for someone who absolutely loves the boardgame with the talent and time. <????>

Let's not even talk about the ridiculous commissions (30%) the stores skim off the top and the crazy annual membership fee that one of the big companies charges to develop for their platform. If a dev has a 50/50 arrangement with GMT, Apple/Android get 30%, dev gets 35% and GMT gets 35%. Let's be really optimistic and say 10000 copies go at 10$ - the dev made 35k for what - 2-3 years of work?



That was informative in a sobering sort of way.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Salvatore Vasta
United States
Woodstock
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
That was informative in a sobering sort of way.


Quite sobering.

Quote:
You could also ask the guy who developed World in Flames for PC. That took at least 10 years, and it's still not finished, several years after it was released.


Considering the USE the boardgame took 7 years from start to printing plus 2 years of fine tuning after it got out to the "masses", that doesn't surprise me.

It's the AI, more than anything, that would seem to me to be the major hurdle. Naturally, one would want the ability for gamers to play solitaire. That is one of the benefits of a PC version. However, if that was taken off the table to start with (which I know means a lot less buyers), it should take a lot less time to develop something like the Cyberboard or VASSAL version, but bulked up with computer tracked movement, economy, and rules such as policies. It would be nice to have something like that.

Quote:
But for someone who absolutely loves the boardgame with the talent and time. <????>


Volunteers... anyone... hello?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Peter Kossits
Canada
Montreal
Quebec
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Sorry guys - didn't want to be all doom and gloom. The app business is actually encouraging enough that I've decided to stick with it and do my 2nd game and keep at it for another 2 years rather than getting a "real" job. In a way there's more job security - I don't have to worry about losing my job due to cost-cutting or because some bozo higher up missed his estimates.

If the stores weren't so greedy and the acceptable prices were just a tiny bit higher, it would be a no-brainer decision. At least things seem to be trending away from all the "free" BS that was the standard the last few years.

svasta wrote:

It's the AI, more than anything, that would seem to me to be the major hurdle.


Hmmm....you know I haven't actually had a chance to play USE yet - I sent one out as a Secret Santa gift last year! BUT...I did happen to watch some great videos by a fellow who recorded his plays of the scenarios. I particularly remember his invasion of France run through.

...and he seemed to use the same patterns over and over as the Germans. Air power commitment for the Western Allies would have been really simple to do in a random but logical fashion.

I love solitaire gaming (and even came up with a card driven bot for ASL this year!) and I saw great possibilities of coming up with a card/dice driven bot based on what I saw. So maybe that would be a good place to start?

I've been holding off on the P500 of the reprint because my table is just a bit smaller than the boards needed for the full game - but if I see it in my local shop I don't think I'll be able to resist.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Timo Kellomäki
Finland
Tampere
Unspecified
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
As a (PC) game developer, here's my two cents.

There's a huge difference between the work required to reach a barely playable hobbyist level and an actual commercial product. The amount of polish needed to get all the details right always seems to surprise people. To have any chance in a larger market, the visuals and the rest of the user experience need to be of very high quality. You need to teach people the rules inside the game so no manual is needed, etc. Compared to "Vassal module with some rule enforcement built in" that's in a completely different ballpark.

So, I agree with the previous opinions that a commercial digital USE would be quite a risky project, if not outright impossible. That said, there seems to be a large enough customer base for complex strategy games at least on PC. Compared to most other war games of similar scale, USE is very easy to teach and learn, which I believe would help gaining an audience. Also I understand that the developer wages in, for example, Eastern Europe are lower than the figures mentioned in this conversation.

On the other hand, making a cruder version with no hopes of anyone getting a living out of it should be totally possible for a programmer with some extra time (assuming the right holders would be ok with it). A limited AI, such as the defender role in some of the more limited scenarios should be doable, but getting the it to pose any challenge in the main event seems like a huge task to me.

My hobby war game project of a roughly similar scope took about a year's worth of free time before it was in a very crude but completely playable shape.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Salvatore Vasta
United States
Woodstock
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
On the other hand, making a cruder version with no hopes of anyone getting a living out of it should be totally possible for a programmer with some extra time (assuming the right holders would be ok with it). A limited AI, such as the defender role in some of the more limited scenarios should be doable, but getting the it to pose any challenge in the main event seems like a huge task to me.


Thanks for volunteering, Timo.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Timo Kellomäki
Finland
Tampere
Unspecified
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Thanks for volunteering, Timo.


That could actually be a fun project... But there would be little hope of seeing anything playable before about 2035 due to some other obligations
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Arthur Dougherty
United States
Maplewood
New Jersey
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Daemou wrote:
Quote:
Thanks for volunteering, Timo.


That could actually be a fun project... But there would be little hope of seeing anything playable before about 2035 due to some other obligations


That sounds like a firm release date to me.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.