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Shadows of Brimstone: City of the Ancients» Forums » General

Subject: Any update on next kickstarter? rss

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Michael Porter
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The ancient Japan one they announced at GenCon.
 
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Brian Jurney
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I would be surprised if they did it before Wave 2 was fully shipped or at least in fulfillment. Im not sure exactly when that will be, but I imagine within the next year.
 
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Official word was that it would start when the studio's work on wave 2 was done. No reason for the creative people to just sit around and wait for manufacture, shipping and other such trivial practicalities to be done before moving on to other endeavours...

'This fall' was said, I believe, maybe even 'October'...
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Joe Price
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jtspecial wrote:
Official word was that it would start when the studio's work on wave 2 was done. No reason for the creative people to just sit around and wait for manufacture, shipping and other such trivial practicalities to be done before moving on to other endeavours...

'This fall' was said, I believe, maybe even 'October'...


Given the wrath that would probably occur, I would be doing the creative work now but not bothering with the kickstarter until at least the rest of the material was being shipped from manufacturing.

It's not like you need a kickstarter to do the creative work - and it really seems better to only really need the manufacturing portion to go. If they're an established designer/publisher, they should be able to handle that - and if they're brand new, using KS funds as a way to live while you develop the game seems to be a bad way to actually deliver a product.
 
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Adam Harrison
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They already have assets working on the forbidden fortress.

The word at gencon was once every single last bit of the original KS was sent to manufacturing, they would do the next KS.
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Frank La Terra
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If they KS this before the first KS is fully delivered, they are fools.
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Max Maloney
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
If they KS this before the first KS is fully delivered, they are fools.

Agreed. They would see massive backlash and ill will if they did so.
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Drew
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
If they KS this before the first KS is fully delivered, they are fools.


Unless they need some new KS money to fully deliver the SOB KS goods.

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Adam Mitchell
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Dormammu wrote:
Mr Skeletor wrote:
If they KS this before the first KS is fully delivered, they are fools.

Agreed. They would see massive backlash and ill will if they did so.


They seem to see massive backlash whatever they do. Given that, it makes more sense to do the new Kickstarter as soon as possible and seems foolish to wait. People like me will back the new Kickstarter and I think that will give them enough money to proceed.
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Joe Price
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clip611 wrote:
Mr Skeletor wrote:
If they KS this before the first KS is fully delivered, they are fools.


Unless they need some new KS money to fully deliver the SOB KS goods.


That's what all of us sobs that didn't back the KS are doing for you! whistle
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Frank La Terra
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clip611 wrote:
Mr Skeletor wrote:
If they KS this before the first KS is fully delivered, they are fools.


Unless they need some new KS money to fully deliver the SOB KS goods.



Exactly. And we all know doing that sort of thing never leads to trouble.
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Highlord Tamburlaine
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A pertinent question would be if they do another all- in type pledge, and if they have it in such limited amounts that there is much wailing and gnashing of teeth over it for months on end.

I would hope not.

FFP are really in a damned if they do, damned if they don't position I think.
 
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Jonah Rees
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I'd bet my mortgage on them doing the KS before the previous one has been fulfilled!
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Njorl
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jonahmaul wrote:
I'd bet my mortgage on them doing the KS before the previous one has been fulfilled!


I feel that wanting them to start the kickstarter after everyone has received their goods, is us consumers cutting off our noses. So they will have sent everything off to production in the next month, at which point they will..... do something which I guess would be make stuff for their other games if they are not starting the other kickstarter. I'm not really sure what a day in the life is like for these guys, but with everything design complete, I don't think they actually travel to China to do much.

So they could spend the next 6 months getting the boxes and packing materials ready, and maybe head-hunting for the best package packers they can find and hope they will be available 6 months from now. The more I think about the less sense any of this makes.

So to take a leap, I am assuming that they are not physically or mentally involved with the production and packing from China. Now if they start the kickstarter this month, they get the backing and start work, and any backers get the base goods in a year and a half. However, if they wait the six months for everyone to get their packages, that means we have to wait six months longer and I don't really know how that benefits us.

This was a bit hasty, so there might be a fault in my logic, but I really can't see it.
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Joe Price
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njep wrote:
jonahmaul wrote:
I'd bet my mortgage on them doing the KS before the previous one has been fulfilled!


I feel that wanting them to start the kickstarter after everyone has received their goods, is us consumers cutting off our noses. So they will have sent everything off to production in the next month, at which point they will..... do something which I guess would be make stuff for their other games if they are not starting the other kickstarter. I'm not really sure what a day in the life is like for these guys, but with everything design complete, I don't think they actually travel to China to do much.

So they could spend the next 6 months getting the boxes and packing materials ready, and maybe head-hunting for the best package packers they can find and hope they will be available 6 months from now. The more I think about the less sense any of this makes.

So to take a leap, I am assuming that they are not physically or mentally involved with the production and packing from China. Now if they start the kickstarter this month, they get the backing and start work, and any backers get the base goods in a year and a half. However, if they wait the six months for everyone to get their packages, that means we have to wait six months longer and I don't really know how that benefits us.

This was a bit hasty, so there might be a fault in my logic, but I really can't see it.


I definitely agree with the nose comment, but! The only need I see to start a KS ASAP is to bring in operating money. If all the money will actually be spent to produce the game and provide profit, they can get some goodwill by merely delaying the accumulation of that profit. There is NOTHING that says they cannot be working on the game WITHOUT a KS running or having been run. I actually think it's better to do most of that work BEFORE running a KS.

So unless they really do need the money to finish the first KS (a bad situation), the impact should really be interest on the accumulated kickstarter funds. And from a business perspective in the US, I would wait to receive those funds until the beginning of the year so I don't have to pay taxes on them before I get to start spending those funds. Why pay Uncle Sam the full rate this year and then get a refund the next (or a reduction)? That's money out of your pocket.

So.
* Do design and testing work now.
* Set up KS later.
* Get some goodwill.
* Don't use Uncle Sam as a zero interest piggy bank.
* Show the gaming community you don't need funds to finish your previous commitment. (I really, truly, seriously do not think this is the case, but the accusations have been getting thrown around, even if in jest.)
 
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Njorl
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Something in between the two scenarios is that they did take a hit from the kickstarter, more significant than they were planning, and that they need the income to start development.
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reaching out from the in-between spaces...
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rpvt wrote:
njep wrote:
jonahmaul wrote:
I'd bet my mortgage on them doing the KS before the previous one has been fulfilled!


I feel that wanting them to start the kickstarter after everyone has received their goods, is us consumers cutting off our noses. So they will have sent everything off to production in the next month, at which point they will..... do something which I guess would be make stuff for their other games if they are not starting the other kickstarter. I'm not really sure what a day in the life is like for these guys, but with everything design complete, I don't think they actually travel to China to do much.

So they could spend the next 6 months getting the boxes and packing materials ready, and maybe head-hunting for the best package packers they can find and hope they will be available 6 months from now. The more I think about the less sense any of this makes.

So to take a leap, I am assuming that they are not physically or mentally involved with the production and packing from China. Now if they start the kickstarter this month, they get the backing and start work, and any backers get the base goods in a year and a half. However, if they wait the six months for everyone to get their packages, that means we have to wait six months longer and I don't really know how that benefits us.

This was a bit hasty, so there might be a fault in my logic, but I really can't see it.


I definitely agree with the nose comment, but! The only need I see to start a KS ASAP is to bring in operating money. If all the money will actually be spent to produce the game and provide profit, they can get some goodwill by merely delaying the accumulation of that profit. There is NOTHING that says they cannot be working on the game WITHOUT a KS running or having been run. I actually think it's better to do most of that work BEFORE running a KS.

So unless they really do need the money to finish the first KS (a bad situation), the impact should really be interest on the accumulated kickstarter funds. And from a business perspective in the US, I would wait to receive those funds until the beginning of the year so I don't have to pay taxes on them before I get to start spending those funds. Why pay Uncle Sam the full rate this year and then get a refund the next (or a reduction)? That's money out of your pocket.

So.
* Do design and testing work now.
* Set up KS later.
* Get some goodwill.
* Don't use Uncle Sam as a zero interest piggy bank.
* Show the gaming community you don't need funds to finish your previous commitment. (I really, truly, seriously do not think this is the case, but the accusations have been getting thrown around, even if in jest.)


You're really just speculating on how to run a business which is vastly different with how it really works.

FFP has full time staff for things like art, game design, etc. These people need to get paid. Since they are working on the new game now, they need to get paid for it from a pool of money from THAT game. Why should they get paid for it with money from the Shadows of Brimstone pool? So since we know work has already commenced on the new project, it's time to start it up.

There's always this idea that if a creator starts a new KS project before another is completely finished, than it must mean they need funds to fulfill the last one. What seems to get missed is that it costs money to create the new KS project before it's launched, so guess where that money is coming from? The original KS project?

Jorune
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Eric Harman
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I think, for the most part, anyone who will decide to not back fofo because of the state of the sobs ks has already made that decision.
Similarly, any of us who bought at retail, and want in on the new ks have also, mostly, decided.

I honestly don't think it will make much difference to their bottom line if they start the new ks now, or in 8 months when every single backer has been delivered to.

I'm also fairly certain they don't need a new ks to fund delivery of the old one. By all accounts the game is doing well at retail. Which, btw, is why it went to retail before it was delivered to backers.
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Joe Price
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I have to admit, I think Eric has a good point, so...

But as far as how the industry runs - it's not all about kickstarter. Companies, even board game companies, have for a very long time been putting money into a product before getting a return. In addition, if you are a business that is ever considering to rob Peter to pay Paul (or in business terms, taking funds ear marked for a new project to finish an old project) you are probably a business that is failing.

FFP has definitely been making money beyond what's from kickstarter. I know because I didn't back SoB and yet I still have basically everything in retail plus the GenCon previews. I know SoB material has been selling - you can see inventory counts from MM and CSI. If they really *must* do a new kickstarter to stay in business - I don't want to do business with them any more as it's a totally losing proposition. There will be a short stick at some point.

I will also point out that US tax laws don't care what type of business you are. Paying, for example, 30% of your new million dollar KS project to Uncle Sam (say after KS fees), means $300k paid to taxes. If you then spend 700k that remains, you've reinvested that money in the business (for non-C-Corp type businesses - or is that S-Corp - gah, taxation details) which means getting to deduct various amounts and get a return from the government some amount of that money you paid the year before - a year later.

On the other hand, if you have that mil, spend that 700k, your basically only taxed on 300k, so 90k in taxes. You probably won't get that back, but that's also a difference in 210k that you now have access to.

Uncle Sam doesn't care what the money *will be* used for, he only cares if you have that money at the end of your fiscal year. You have to pay taxes on it then.

So if you're going to get a large infusion of cash, don't do it right at the end of your fiscal year if you can help it.

Having said all of that, I'm not a CPA - just a small business owner who has dealt with these issues before and that's how it affected me.
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Andreas Lieberoth Wadum
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Dormammu wrote:
Mr Skeletor wrote:
If they KS this before the first KS is fully delivered, they are fools.

Agreed. They would see massive backlash and ill will if they did so.


Disagree.

They are a business, and they need to keep their cash flow running.

There is no good reason not to jumpstart a new line while the previous one is in production, if the people working on the two, wouldn't be the same crew anyway. Different teams working different things. Basic project management.

Also, I really don't believe that FFG can incur much more of a backlash from the grumpy cats already irate about the tardiness of wave 2... And no matter how grumpy, I'm pretty sure many will get in on the SoB:FF KS no matter what.
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Eric Harman
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rpvt wrote:
Stuff about tax laws


I didn't think about it from that angle.
So if you're a company running a big kickstarter near the end of the tax year, you want your ks to end *after* the tax year does, so that the money can be reinvested before you calculate it for taxes.
 
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Frank La Terra
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I must be talking about a different KS from the rest of you.

I was talking about Shadows over Brimstone, a game by a company who were operating long before KS was even a thing, and have plenty of shit they could be working on instead of drowing themselves in another KS before they have proven they could deliver the first.

I NEVER complain about late kickstarters, but this one is a fucking joke. Years late, crap comms, shit changed post KS without so much as a 'sorry' - it amazes me people are willing to throw more money at this bullshit.

I was a mapmaker backer, this was the most I ever spent on a KS. Pigs ass I'll be handing FFP another cent till I get everything I'm owed.
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Eric Harman
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
I must be talking about a different KS from the rest of you.

I was talking about Shadows over Brimstone, a game by a company who were operating long before KS was even a thing, and have plenty of shit they could be working on instead of drowing themselves in another KS before they have proven they could deliver the first.

I NEVER complain about late kickstarters, but this one is a fucking joke. Years late, crap comms, shit changed post KS without so much as a 'sorry' - it amazes me people are willing to throw more money at this bullshit.

I was a mapmaker backer, this was the most I ever spent on a KS. Pigs ass I'll be handing FFP another cent till I get everything I'm owed.

*Yawn*
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Adam Mitchell
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Mr Skeletor wrote:

I NEVER complain about late kickstarters, but this one is a fucking joke.


To paraphrase Inigo Montoya, "Why do you use that word 'never'? I do not think it means what you think it means."
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Matthew Vantries
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
I NEVER complain about late kickstarters, but this one is a fucking joke. Years late, crap comms, shit changed post KS without so much as a 'sorry' - it amazes me people are willing to throw more money at this bullshit.

People would be willing to back it right now because even though the SoB campaign wasn't great, it's still an amazingly fun game, and I don't think anybody is worried that FFP won't actually deliver wave 2.
There's plenty of people that will back it because they love the game. And there's plenty of people that won't back it because they're either bitter about the first campaign (and so wouldn't back it regardless of when it occurs), or else they want to get it sooner by waiting till retail. I'm willing to bet you're in very small minority that MIGHT back it depending on when they run the campaign.
 
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