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Wargames» Forums » General

Subject: GMT sales vs. BGG owners rss

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Eddy Sterckx
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GMT released their latest all-time sales numbers and I figured it would be neat to match them up with the number of registered owners here at BGG.

I'm too lazy to bother with formatting, the columns are : name, all-time sales, owned on BGG, BGG owners as percentage of total sales

Twilight Struggle 100000 32817 33%
Battle Line 40000 13782 34%
Dominant Species 25000 12780 51%
C&C Ancients (Base game) 20000 8405 42%
Paths of Glory 16000 6205 39%
Combat Commander: Europe 13000 5923 46%
Wilderness War 11000 3012 27%
Labyrinth 11000 5566 51%
Thunder Alley 9500 2633 28%
Formula Motor Racing 9000 1914 21%
Ivanhoe 9000 2000 22%
C&C Napoleonics (Base game) 9000 3071 34%
Washington’s War 9000 3448 38%
Here I Stand 8500 3930 46%
C&C Ancients Expansion 1 8500 2994 35%

For those who hadn't realized it yet : it's pretty clear it's the non-wargames which keep GMT afloat and allow them to publish "real" wargames.

For the "real" wargames the percentage of BGG owners is pretty steady : between a third and half of all sold games has been registered here at BGG. That's a lot. Publishers and designers can draw their own conclusions from this.

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Inappropriate Andy
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Very interesting stats!
I'm actually a little surprised that only 33% of Twilight Struggles are registered on BGG, given its #1 status for such a long time.
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Mike Hoyt
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which of those do you consider to be "real wargames"?
devil
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Inappropriate Andy
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blockhead wrote:
which of those do you consider to be "real wargames"?
devil


Well, Twilight Struggle to start...
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Eddy Sterckx
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blockhead wrote:
which of those do you consider to be "real wargames"?
devil


Well, only Ivanhoe of course, it's the only one which has fair maidens in it and that's a requirement for any war - as Hollywood has taught me
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David Lopez
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eddy_sterckx wrote:
I'm too lazy to bother with formatting, the columns are : name, all-time sales, owned on BGG, BGG owners as percentage of total sales


There ya go !


Twilight Struggle 100000 32817 33%
Battle Line 40000 13782 34%
Dominant Species 25000 12780 51%
C&C Ancients (Base game)20000 8405 42%
Paths of Glory 16000 6205 39%
Combat Commander: Europ 13000 5923 46%
Wilderness War 11000 3012 27%
Labyrinth 11000 5566 51%
Thunder Alley 9500 2633 28%
Formula Motor Racing 9000 1914 21%
Ivanhoe 9000 2000 22%
C&C Napoleonics (Base ga 9000 3071 34%
Washington’s War 9000 3448 38%
Here I Stand 8500 3930 46%
C&C Ancients Expansion 1 8500 2994 35%


eddy_sterckx wrote:
it's pretty clear it's the non-wargames which keep GMT afloat and allow them to publish "real" wargames.


Mark Herman stated that Victory Games' greatest commercial success was:
Dr. Ruth's Game of Good Sex

So nothing changes very much...
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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eddy_sterckx wrote:
For those who hadn't realized it yet : it's pretty clear it's the non-wargames which keep GMT afloat and allow them to publish "real" wargames.


Except almost all those on the list are real wargames, including the top spot.
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Rex Stites
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eddy_sterckx wrote:


For those who hadn't realized it yet : it's pretty clear it's the non-wargames which Twilight Struggle that keeps GMT afloat and allows them to publish "real" war other games.




FYP
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Leo Zappa
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klkitchens wrote:
eddy_sterckx wrote:
For those who hadn't realized it yet : it's pretty clear it's the non-wargames which keep GMT afloat and allow them to publish "real" wargames.


Except almost all those on the list are real wargames, including the top spot.


Well, the top game listed clearly isn't a wargame, but eight or nine others on the list are, so that's not too bad!

devil
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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desertfox2004 wrote:
klkitchens wrote:
eddy_sterckx wrote:
For those who hadn't realized it yet : it's pretty clear it's the non-wargames which keep GMT afloat and allow them to publish "real" wargames.


Except almost all those on the list are real wargames, including the top spot.


Well, the top game listed clearly isn't a wargame, but eight or nine others on the list are, so that's not too bad!

devil


True wargamers would disagree with you... whistle
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Patrick Pence
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Keep in mind that these numbers only reflect those folks inclined to actually add their collection to the database. Since it's voluntary, there are likely significantly more BGG users who are own these games, but just didn't utilize the collection lisiting available to them.
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Steven Mitchell
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It also reflects only those boardgamers who are on BGG to begin with. I know this comes as a shock to some, but not everyone who owns and plays boardgames bothers to use this site.
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James Lowry
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Uh... the initial list compares total GMT sales to BGG stats. i.e., your objections are already handled. (The main potential failure is double-counting from people marking 'owned', trading/selling to someone else who does the same, and the first person doesn't change his status.)

Looks like an average of around 30-40%. Much higher than I would have expected.
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Kurt Keckley
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eddy_sterckx wrote:

Combat Commander: Europe 13000 5923 46%


This is the total that surprised me the most. I expected the total sales of Combat Commander to be double this or more. Imagine if AH had published it in the 80's.

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Resist the Kakistocracy
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klkitchens wrote:
desertfox2004 wrote:
klkitchens wrote:
eddy_sterckx wrote:
For those who hadn't realized it yet : it's pretty clear it's the non-wargames which keep GMT afloat and allow them to publish "real" wargames.


Except almost all those on the list are real wargames, including the top spot.


Well, the top game listed clearly isn't a wargame, but eight or nine others on the list are, so that's not too bad!

devil


True wargamers would disagree with you... whistle

I enjoy the repetition.

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Ken Feldman
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klkitchens wrote:
eddy_sterckx wrote:
For those who hadn't realized it yet : it's pretty clear it's the non-wargames which keep GMT afloat and allow them to publish "real" wargames.


Except almost all those on the list are real wargames, including the top spot.


I think most wargamers on BGG have come to the conclusion that card driven (CDG) wargames are "real wargames". What's interesting is that all of the wargames on the top seller list are CDGs. The traditional hex-and-counter games, of which GMT publishes many, are not top sellers.

That includes the East Front Series, Great Battles of History, Great Battles of the American Civil War, Musket and Pike and many other traditional style wargames.
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Leo Zappa
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Kenfeldman wrote:
klkitchens wrote:
eddy_sterckx wrote:
For those who hadn't realized it yet : it's pretty clear it's the non-wargames which keep GMT afloat and allow them to publish "real" wargames.


Except almost all those on the list are real wargames, including the top spot.


I think most wargamers on BGG have come to the conclusion that card driven (CDG) wargames are "real wargames". What's interesting is that all of the wargames on the top seller list are CDGs. The traditional hex-and-counter games, of which GMT publishes many, are not top sellers.

That includes the East Front Series, Great Battles of History, Great Battles of the American Civil War, Musket and Pike and many other traditional style wargames.


I noticed the same regarding hex and counter titles, though I suppose Combat Commander has hexes and counters, but it is not a traditional title. As for why that is I can only guess that the card driven designs are perhaps more accessible for newer wargamers and that grogs perhaps find it easier to get opponents when they trot out a CDG. I play them myself on occasion but I always find myself coming back to the traditional designs. Guess I'm a bit of a dinosaur in this regard!
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InappropriateAndy wrote:
Very interesting stats!
I'm actually a little surprised that only 33% of Twilight Struggles are registered on BGG, given its #1 status for such a long time.


    I've bumped into two copies of Twilight Struggle that were owned by "casual" gamers. It has a deeper footprint that most of the other stuff you see in the pop charts here on BGG. (In comparison, I've never seen a single Stefan Feld game that was owned by someone outside the BGG community.) Apparently there's something about the game that catches the attention of normal people.

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Inappropriate Andy
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Sagrilarus wrote:
InappropriateAndy wrote:
Very interesting stats!
I'm actually a little surprised that only 33% of Twilight Struggles are registered on BGG, given its #1 status for such a long time.

I've bumped into two copies of Twilight Struggle that were owned by "casual" gamers. It has a deeper footprint that most of the other stuff you see in the pop charts here on BGG.

I'm happy to be wrong about this!
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Jake
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Sagrilarus wrote:
catches the attention of normal people.



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Kevin L. Kitchens
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patton1138 wrote:
It also reflects only those boardgamers who are on BGG to begin with. I know this comes as a shock to some, but not everyone who owns and plays boardgames bothers to use this site.


Some are trapped in the Gacy basement known as CSW...
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Cole Wehrle
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I've long supposed that BGG represents about a third of the hobby. I'd imagine these ratios would hold when it comes to non-gmt games. They were certainly true for Sierra Madre Games as well as with other publishers I've talked to.
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Dave K
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Cole Wehrle wrote:
I've long supposed that BGG represents about a third of the hobby. I'd imagine these ratios would hold when it comes to non-gmt games. They were certainly true for Sierra Madre Games as well as with other publishers I've talked to.


I'm entirely armchair theorizing here, but my guess would be even if BGG represents 1/3 of the sales, it doesn't represent 1/3 of the people. That is, the BGG users tend to be frequent purchasers, but number-wise they don't represent 1/3 of the customers headcount.
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But don't you need to know what % of actual BGG owners have registered their game in order for this data to have any meaning? I don't register any games, for example.
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Keith Medlin
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adm1 wrote:
But don't you need to know what % of actual BGG owners have registered their game in order for this data to have any meaning? I don't register any games, for example.


Heretic...lol
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