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SeaFall» Forums » Rules

Subject: Rule Clarification: Dice for Raids rss

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T W
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Not a question, just a rulebook issue that I ran into and spent the better part of an hour looking for clarification. I caught this after watching the "Watch it Played" video.

When raiding, you add dice to your pool for each enmity token of the province you're raiding in your at war section, and once complete, you remove that province's enmity tokens from your at war section before placing your own. This is described in the "Tokens and Enmity" section on page 11, and isn't referenced again anywhere in the raiding or endeavors sections.

This is confusing because the rulebook is inconsistent. It describes what dice to remove due to enmity in the section about raiding, but does not describe what dice to add. The section of the rulebook that specifically talks about what dice to add (Endeavor section), doesn't talk about Enmity either.
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Becq Starforged
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It would be useful to have that additional reference information in the endeavor section, true.
androsix wrote:
When raiding, you add dice to your pool for each enmity token of the province you're raiding in your at war section, and once complete, you remove that province's enmity tokens from your at war section before placing your own. This is described in the "Tokens and Enmity" section on page 11, and isn't referenced again anywhere in the raiding or endeavors sections.

Just to clarify, the total number of tokens you have to give the target (from your supply and/or that faction's enmity in your at war box) is the pillage value of your target, with that "cost" being paid from the at war box first. But you don't simply return all of that faction's enmity; if you have more of their enmity than than the pillage cost, then you'll still have some left over and won't end up paying any of your own (and remaining enmity tokens will grant you a bonus again on your next raid). An odd aside to not paying any of your own tokens is that no tokens will end up being placed on the target site -- which means it can be raided again during the same year.

It's an odd rule and not entirely clear in the rules, so I thought I'd throw that in just in case.
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T W
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Right, thanks for the additional clarification. I didn't want to get too lengthy

Some additional theorycrafting, the behavior of enmity tokens becomes very interesting when balancing whether to counter-raid with lots of dice and no risk, or hold on to an enemy enmity to punish then in future games (via permanent enmity). Against someone behind in points, I think raid raid raid. Against a campaign leader, probably hold off and punish... Not sure
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Becq Starforged
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androsix wrote:
Right, thanks for the additional clarification. I didn't want to get too lengthy

Some additional theorycrafting, the behavior of enmity tokens becomes very interesting when balancing whether to counter-raid with lots of dice and no risk, or hold on to an enemy enmity to punish then in future games (via permanent enmity). Against someone behind in points, I think raid raid raid. Against a campaign leader, probably hold off and punish... Not sure

Agreed, it's an interesting choice! However, I see keeping the permanent enmity as more of a self-defense measure. Once the enmity is a sticker, it only works on defense, so it makes it a lot harder for them to attack you (which could be great if that opponent tends to raid a lot), but it hardly seems punitive. On the other hand, those bonus dice *could* be valuable in stripping glory from a player who might otherwise win the game.

Another thing to consider is that those "at war" tokens could be the key to gaining glory for yourself: in addition to granting a bonus for raiding (at 1 glory per raid), you can steal treasures (1+ glory each), goods cubes (structure/upgrade/treasure fodder, each worth about 0.8 glory, if you have the actions to convert them).

And these are just options available at the beginning of the campaign. Perhaps other options will present themselves...? Bottom line: I think there are a lot of fairly situational options to choose from!
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Jason Pisani
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Where is this rule?
Quote:
Once the enmity is a sticker, it only works on defense,

-You've been very helpful Becq.
 
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Darren Nakamura
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I think that falls out of the way the rules are written. When you're attacking, you give back enmity tokens, but there's no way to give back an enmity sticker. (Under the assumption that stickers are permanent.)
 
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j n
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iamthepisani wrote:
Where is this rule?
Quote:
Once the enmity is a sticker, it only works on defense,

-You've been very helpful Becq.


p. 11

"You are at war with another province if you have at least one of their enmity tokens in your At War With space on your province board. This allows you to use enmity on offense as well as defense. Each enmity token in your at war with section adds one die to your dice pool when raiding that province."

Stickers don't go in your At War With section (they go on the main board, in the province region).
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Becq Starforged
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iamthepisani wrote:
Where is this rule?
Quote:
Once the enmity is a sticker, it only works on defense,

-You've been very helpful Becq.

It's not stated outright, as such. However:
SeaFall, p11 wrote:
Using Enmity On Defense
When raiding, the raiding party removes one die from their raid dice
pool for each enmity of theirs in the region they are raiding.

For defense, it refers to "enmity in the region"; used in the general form this refers to both tokens and stickers (in the example, the enmity is in the form of stickers).
SeaFall, p11 wrote:
Enmity and Being at War
You are at war with another province if you have at least one of their enmity tokens in your At War With space on your province board. This allows you to use enmity on offense as well as defense. Each enmity token in your at war with section adds one die to your dice pool when raiding that province.

AND

Giving Enmity Tokens
Whenever you are required to put enmity tokens on an island site, give enmity tokens from your home enmity section of your province board. Whenever you put enmity tokens on a site controlled by a province you are at war with, return any of theirs in your At War With space before giving your own. Enmity tokens returned to a player are immediately placed in their home enmity section, not on the raided site.

Here we see that you only use enmity on offense if you have tokens in your at war box, and only those tokens add dice. Stickers don't add to dice, and tokens somewhere other than your at war box also don't add to dice. So the life cycle of enmity generally works like this:
1. You are raided. Enmity is placed on the site raided. At this point, the tokens are "enmity in your region", but not "enmity tokens in your at war box", so the enmity counts toward your garrison against the raiding player. (Defense only)
2. During winter, enmity tokens move to the at war box. Tokens in the at war box count toward your garrison against that player, provide dice when raiding that character, and are used to "pay" for raids against that player before paying your own enmity. (Offense and defense)
3. At game end, any remaining enmity tokens turn into stickers. At this point, they count toward your garrison against that player only.
4. At some point (if a lot of people hate you or love your stuff), the sticker might be stickered over, and no longer does anything. The attacker can also cancel out enmity stickers during the end-game sequence, but it's harder than removing tokens.
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Will
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There is still some ambiguity to me. For attacking everything makes sense, but for defending there seems to be multiple interpretations.

Some of this involves a few spoilers opened in the first 3 boxes, but I don't see how you couldn't easily guess these things are coming:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
In another thread, the person mentioned that:
“Province enmity and At War With enmity applies whenever anything a player controls is raided, regardless of its location”.
Nobody seemed to take issue with this, but it is not how we were interpreting the Province enmity stickers.

The key questions are bolded:

If I have 1 enmity sticker at Player B's province and 1 enmity token in his "At War" section and I raid one of his ships out on the open water, How many dice do I lose?
What about if I raid his colony?
(I just want to hear about the enmity's effects. Don't worry about sail/raid values, support ships, the colony's garrison, etc.)


I would answer 1 to the ship question and 1 to the colony question. Both because of the At War token.

We have been treating the enmity stickers as applying only to that specific location on the board, including enmity stickers at provinces.
However, enmity in the At War section Player B's board WOULD apply to ships and colonies being raided in the cases above.
From reading the rules on page 11 (so many times) it is clear how bonuses work for attacking and how enmity works when your province is attacked, but not when your "other stuff" is attacked.

On page 18 under "Raiding a Ship" it says "Add 1 die... if the attacker controls the space. Remove 1 die if the defender controls it." Does this mean that tokens in the At War section and province sticker enmity both do nothing when a ship is raided?

On page 20 under "Raid a Colony" it says to "use the governor's enmity." Does this mean their garrison is increased by the enmity tokens in that player's At War section and enmity stickers in their province?
The phrase "governor's enmity" is not defined anywhere, as far as I can see. Is governor's enmity = province enmity stickers + At War enmity tokens? Or just At War tokens?

Sorry if I came across vitriolic at all. I'm just frustrated spending time trying wading through this rules minutiae that has permanent, game-changing consequences.

Despite all this, the game is still amazing.
 
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clarence
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Temelin wrote:
There is still some ambiguity to me. For attacking everything makes sense, but for defending there seems to be multiple interpretations.

Some of this involves a few spoilers opened in the first 3 boxes, but I don't see how you couldn't easily guess these things are coming:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
In another thread, the person mentioned that:
“Province enmity and At War With enmity applies whenever anything a player controls is raided, regardless of its location”.
Nobody seemed to take issue with this, but it is not how we were interpreting the Province enmity stickers.

The key questions are bolded:

If I have 1 enmity sticker at Player B's province and 1 enmity token in his "At War" section and I raid one of his ships out on the open water, How many dice do I lose?
What about if I raid his colony?
(I just want to hear about the enmity's effects. Don't worry about sail/raid values, support ships, the colony's garrison, etc.)


I would answer 1 to the ship question and 1 to the colony question. Both because of the At War token.

We have been treating the enmity stickers as applying only to that specific location on the board, including enmity stickers at provinces.
However, enmity in the At War section Player B's board WOULD apply to ships and colonies being raided in the cases above.
From reading the rules on page 11 (so many times) it is clear how bonuses work for attacking and how enmity works when your province is attacked, but not when your "other stuff" is attacked.

On page 18 under "Raiding a Ship" it says "Add 1 die... if the attacker controls the space. Remove 1 die if the defender controls it." Does this mean that tokens in the At War section and province sticker enmity both do nothing when a ship is raided?

On page 20 under "Raid a Colony" it says to "use the governor's enmity." Does this mean their garrison is increased by the enmity tokens in that player's At War section and enmity stickers in their province?
The phrase "governor's enmity" is not defined anywhere, as far as I can see. Is governor's enmity = province enmity stickers + At War enmity tokens? Or just At War tokens?

Sorry if I came across vitriolic at all. I'm just frustrated spending time trying wading through this rules minutiae that has permanent, game-changing consequences.

Despite all this, the game is still amazing.


Enmity stickers Always apply for ship and colonies.
 
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Matt S
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Spoiler (click to reveal)
Also don't forget you will also loose a die for the other player controlling the space when raiding Player B's colony.
 
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David desJardins
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mcs1213 wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Also don't forget you will also loose a die for the other player controlling the space when raiding Player B's colony.


Nope. Where did you get that idea?
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Will
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Spoiler (click to reveal)
I think he was thinking about when you raid a ship that's on a space they control or vice versa. A die is lost or gained in those cases.
 
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Becq Starforged
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Temelin wrote:
If I have 1 enmity sticker at Player B's province and 1 enmity token in his "At War" section ... How many dice do I lose?

You would lose two dice due to enmity regardless of the type of raid -- your (placed) enmity stickers and tokens reduce your die pool wherever they are. (By the way, if you also had one of your enmity tokens on one of his fields, that would subtract from your pool as well. No need for it to be in his at war box!)
(Box 1 spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
This includes raids against ships
(Box 2 spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
and colonies.


You *gain* dice based on your opponent's enmity in your at war box ONLY, not for their enmity stickers on your province, or for their enmity tokens on fields or other sites (though during winter, those tokens will move to your at war box).

(Box 1 spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Quote:
On page 18 under "Raiding a Ship" it says "Add 1 die... if the attacker controls the space. Remove 1 die if the defender controls it." Does this mean that tokens in the At War section and province sticker enmity both do nothing when a ship is raided?

No, this is a separate effect. Basically, it's easiest to think of control of a space as being the equivalent of another support ship, adding or subtracting a die depending on whether it's the attacker or defender that has control. This includes home provinces
(Box 2 spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
as well as colonies.
Note, though, that *structures* at those controlled locations don't grant defensive benefit to raids against ships (unless they specifically say otherwise).


(Box 2 spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Quote:
On page 20 under "Raid a Colony" it says to "use the governor's enmity." Does this mean their garrison is increased by the enmity tokens in that player's At War section and enmity stickers in their province?
The phrase "governor's enmity" is not defined anywhere, as far as I can see. Is governor's enmity = province enmity stickers + At War enmity tokens? Or just At War tokens?

The "governor" is the faction that controls the colony. I think that is described in the core colony rule (something like "the faction that holds the colony card is the governor"), but I don't have the rule in front of me. Basically it's just saying what I said in my first answer, that the province's enmity grants bonuses to raids against colonies that faction controls.

 
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Will
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Perfect, thank you very much for the clarifications.
(Box 3 spoiler I think):
Spoiler (click to reveal)
We are still playing that island enmity does not affect raids on colonies, (box 4 or 5 I think):
Spoiler (click to reveal)
however island enmity does affect raids on Ker.

I hope we're getting that right too.
 
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