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Race! Formula 90» Forums » Variants

Subject: Race! Formula 2016/17 ideas rss

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Adam Rees
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Below are some thoughts I have had about how you might be able to play with more modern F1 rules - no refuelling, but three choices of tyre compound in a race (of which you must use two different compounds in the race).

One of my aims was to try and keep the refuel chits working in a similar way. By that I mean that when the refuel chit is reached on the turn record then cars come into the pits, though you will see that cars aren't forced to do this but if they don't they run serious risks of tyre blow-outs. So refuel chits now mark the point beyond which tyres are considered to be too worn and so dangerous to continue to drive on, even if tyre chips still remain. Robots will always pit and put on new tyres when the refuel chit is reached. Unlike with standard rules, the robot chit is not then removed, but is put forward another 16 turns (at the first pit stop all robots are considered to put on hard tyres). Hopefully this will all make more sense as you read through how the idea works below.

As per normal F1 rules, there are three compound available per race. Rather than have super soft, soft, medium and hard, the game will just use soft, medium and hard. These just represent the three compounds for that track.

Also, while the system tries to be fairly simple, this is not its end goal – if complication helps with the simulation, then I have gone for complication. In addtion, this is not to try and right anything wrong in the orginal game, it is just an exploration of how modern rules might be made to work.

Finally, none of this has ever been play tested! I am posting it more to see if anyone else has any idea, or can see ways of improving upon the ideas I have put down.

TYRES
There are three tyre compounds available in every race – Soft, Medium, and Hard. The softer the tyre, the less tyre points a car has, but the faster they will be in qualifying and race speed.

Qualification
Old game fuel qualification bonus was:
8= +2
10 = +1
12 = -1
14 = -2

In new system:
Soft Tyres: +2
Medium Tyres: 0
Hard Tyres: -2

Players will secretly determine which tyre compund they are using for qualifiaction, as they did with fuel load in old game (just use the fuel chit, with 8 symbolizing soft compound, 12 medium compound and 14 hard compound).

For robots, if they have 8 or 10 turns for their refuel chit, then they are considered to be on soft compounds (if robot has refuel chit on turn 10 then add extra +1 to its qualification total). If robot refuel is on turn 12 then they are considered to start on mediums, so improve their qualification total by +1. If robot on refuel on lap 14 then considered qualification on hard tyres, and qualification number remains as normal.

Tyre Performance
Fuel markers used on turn record to indicate when the tyres the car is using are scheduled to lose grip and fall off the cliff i.e. become worn and dangerous to continue driving on. It is initially placed on turn 8, 12, or 16 depending on tyre compound used for qualifying (soft, medium, hard). Tyre chips also still measure how long a tyre retains its speed (i.e. a tyre is worn out either when it losses all its tyre chips, or when the turn reaches its refuel chit). If you pit and change tyres then you get to choose which type of tyre you are putting on and then place the refuel chit 8, 12 or 16 turns ahead, depending on whether the new tyres are soft, medium or hard.

Worn Tyres
Tyres become worn and dangerous to drive on when they are used beyond their refuel chit (e.g. if soft tyres refuel chit on turn 8, then turn 9+ those tyres become worn and dangerous). Tyres also become worn and dangerous if the car runs out of tyre chips before the refuel chip is reached.

On each turn where you drive on worn and dangerous tyres you need to make a blind check at 50. If fail then the tyre has burst, resulting in an immediate pit stop. Two race cards are drawn and their movement added together to determine how many extra sections this pit stop takes, representing the time it takes to get to the pits (maybe just 1 card?). If the check is successful there is still a speed penalty, as the tyres have little grip left. To represent this all movement has a -2 penalty (perhaps should only be -1?), though this will never reduce movement to below 1. If the tyres have to take tyre damage and all the chips are already gone, then each chip lost requires a blind check at 40 (or maybe still 50 to keep things easier to remember?), and failure means the tyre is considered to have burst, leading to a pit stop, as described above.

Tyre Compound Differences

Soft Compound: remove 3 tyre chips + give 3x+1 move, as per standard rules.

Medium Compound: work in the same way that Hard tyres do in old rules i.e. standard amount of tyre chips and 1 free track card.

Hard Compound: Not sure best way of doing this. Two options I have come up with so far, but have little idea of which is a better one, or if either of them are any good, are:

i) +4 tyre chips, 1 track card, -1 movement per turn (but minimum of 1 movement space, or perhaps the penalty should be that if they pair a 1 card then the 1 is ignored for movement, though the symbol on that card can still be used?).

ii) +3 tyre chips and 2 track cards and no movement penalty at all.

As i said above, I am not experienced enough at the game to really figure out what the hard tyres should be. This idea isn’t the finished article, but a first stab at figuring out how the modern F1 tyre rules might be made to work in the game. Hopefully someone will post up some bright ideas below!

DRS
I saw someone had already come up with a DRS idea, that you get to overtake free on the start/finish straight, which seemed a good way of doing it.
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Chris Laudermilk
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Sounds like these ideas have potential. For the hard tires, I'd go with option ii just for simplicity & a -1 move penalty is both harsh and doesn't completely make thematic sense. Perhaps some kind of penalty in contests to simulate the harder compound having difficulty in defending.
 
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Darrell Hanning
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A logical evolution of the soft tire rules already present in the game might be the best solution. The softer the tire is, the fewer regular tire points are issued, and the more of the "blue" tire points are issued.
 
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Adam Rees
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claudermilk wrote:
Sounds like these ideas have potential. For the hard tires, I'd go with option ii just for simplicity & a -1 move penalty is both harsh and doesn't completely make thematic sense. Perhaps some kind of penalty in contests to simulate the harder compound having difficulty in defending.


When they drive on harder compounds they do tend to be slower in real life. I have thought that perhaps you could make the -1 movement be a -1 movement from red cards only, so hard compound tyres are considered to have less top speed, as red cards are speeding cards. That might be a half-way house for a -1 movement. Then just have to decide what happens if you play two red cards on your turn - is it -1 from both, or -1 from the movement total. Not sure really, just throwing out another idea.
 
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René Christensen
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Iorwerth wrote:
claudermilk wrote:
Sounds like these ideas have potential. For the hard tires, I'd go with option ii just for simplicity & a -1 move penalty is both harsh and doesn't completely make thematic sense. Perhaps some kind of penalty in contests to simulate the harder compound having difficulty in defending.


When they drive on harder compounds they do tend to be slower in real life. I have thought that perhaps you could make the -1 movement be a -1 movement from red cards only, so hard compound tyres are considered to have less top speed, as red cards are speeding cards. That might be a half-way house for a -1 movement. Then just have to decide what happens if you play two red cards on your turn - is it -1 from both, or -1 from the movement total. Not sure really, just throwing out another idea.


How about just a -1 movememt if you play a 3 or 4 Race cards?
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Chris Laudermilk
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Iorwerth wrote:
claudermilk wrote:
Sounds like these ideas have potential. For the hard tires, I'd go with option ii just for simplicity & a -1 move penalty is both harsh and doesn't completely make thematic sense. Perhaps some kind of penalty in contests to simulate the harder compound having difficulty in defending.


When they drive on harder compounds they do tend to be slower in real life. I have thought that perhaps you could make the -1 movement be a -1 movement from red cards only, so hard compound tyres are considered to have less top speed, as red cards are speeding cards. That might be a half-way house for a -1 movement. Then just have to decide what happens if you play two red cards on your turn - is it -1 from both, or -1 from the movement total. Not sure really, just throwing out another idea.

Sure, in corners. In straights, the compound really makes no appreciable difference. Thus my suggestion for some kind of penalty in contests--that's really where having the hard compound hurts. Though the red card only idea might work too. I just think a blanket -1 every turn is going to be too much penalty, both for game balance and simulating the effect. Or, Rene's suggestion.
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Adam Rees
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Slotracer wrote:

How about just a -1 movememt if you play a 3 or 4 Race cards?


That sounds a nice and simple rule that might work well.

claudermilk wrote:

Sure, in corners. In straights, the compound really makes no appreciable difference. Thus my suggestion for some kind of penalty in contests--that's really where having the hard compound hurts. Though the red card only idea might work too. I just think a blanket -1 every turn is going to be too much penalty, both for game balance and simulating the effect. Or, Rene's suggestion.


I do agree that a blanket -1 movement looks like it would be too strong a penalty, so get rid of that idea. As to hard compounds being worse in corners but pretty much even in straight line, I would argue that most of the time a turn is simulating more than 1 lap, and hard compound tyres will produce a slower lap time, so some movement penalty could be justified. But, like you said, not a blanket penalty.

What about having corners cost 1 extra MP per section when driving on hard tyres? Would that be too much of a penalty? Would combine it with a penalty in contests as well, as I like that idea. Looking at how many corner sections per track, that would be a penalty of 10-13 MPS per complete circuit of the track:

Monza - 10 corner sections
Hungoring - 13 corner sections
Monaco - 11 corner sections
Spa - 11 corner sections
Barcalona - 11 corner sections.
Silverstone - 11 corner sections.

I don't really have enough experience to tell if that would be too much, but suspect it might be. You could tone it down a touch by keeping the -1 mp per corner section moved through, but any corner sections moved through with a trajectory bonus don't count i.e. hard compound tyres only slow you down at corners when you are not using optimum driving lines.

Another option might be to have a -1 movement penalty when you use a 3 or 4 card and move through at least one corner section - basically using slotracer's idea but limiting it to corners, in order to take on board claudermilk's point about hard compounds being slower in corners but not on straights.


Whatever the penalty for hard tyres might be, it seems sensible to give them more tyre chips. Do you think it should be 3 or 4, or maybe more?

Also, should hard tyres give track cards, and if yes, how many?

So many questions!

 
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Chris Laudermilk
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I get that each turn simulates more than one lap, but still maintain the original idea was too harsh. But then we seem to be in agreement overall on that, so now on to how to come up with something.

I see three options that sound good so far:
1) Contest penalty. Probably the least harsh idea put forth so far.
2) -1 for 3 or 4 cards played.
3) -1 for 3 or 4 cards played and at least one section being a corner section.

I also like the idea of altering the tyre chips based on the compound chosen. Not sure about track cards.
 
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René Christensen
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Or maybe it should only be -1 when you play a total of 4 or more with your Race cards. Bonuses and Track cards should not be affected.
 
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Adam Rees
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Slotracer wrote:
Or maybe it should only be -1 when you play a total of 4 or more with your Race cards. Bonuses and Track cards should not be affected.


That seems an easier rule than -1 if you play a 3 or 4 card. It would have more negative impact than the -1 for a 3 or 4 card, because now it would affect the playing of a pair of 2s. Really it would only not come into play when you play a single card for your turn of less than 4 value, or a 2 and a 1 together. Not saying it is not better, just it might be heading back towards the too overpowering -1 movement penalty every turn. However, if it only came into effect when any part of your move went through a corner section, then that might limit its scope enough?

claudermilk wrote:
I get that each turn simulates more than one lap, but still maintain the original idea was too harsh. But then we seem to be in agreement overall on that, so now on to how to come up with something.

I see three options that sound good so far:
1) Contest penalty. Probably the least harsh idea put forth so far.
2) -1 for 3 or 4 cards played.
3) -1 for 3 or 4 cards played and at least one section being a corner section.

I also like the idea of altering the tyre chips based on the compound chosen. Not sure about track cards.


Personally, with absolutely no playtesting and not nearly as much experience in the game as you two have, I think option 1 (contest penalty only) seems too small a penalty for the additional tyre chips you will get for hard compound. I do think a penalty in contests seems appropriate when trying to simulate hard compounds, so think it would be good to add in conjuction with another option.

If simulating that hard compounds are worse in corner but not in straights is something that would be better, then I would lean towards your option 3. However, perhaps a couple of new options are worth thinking abut:

4) -1 for 3 or 4 cards played and at least one section being a corner section. In addition, -1 modifier on all corner contests.

5) -1 when you play a total of 4 or more with your Race cards (Bonuses and Track cards not included) and at least one section being a corner section. In addition, -1 modifier on all corner contests.

Obviously option 4 here is really option 3 with a corner contest penalty thrown in for good measure.

As to tyre chips, I think hard compounds should maybe give 4 extra chips. Hard compounds last 16 turns, rather than the medium's 12, so 4 extra chips seems about right (i.e. 1 per additional turn). I realize the same logic could be applied to soft compounds - that they only last 8 turns, so should have 4 less tyre chips than medium. However, I don't think that is necessary, as removing 4 tyre chips just seems too big a penalty for the 3x+1 movement.

A perhaps silly idea might be to have some uncertainty about exactly how long each compound can last before becoming dangerously worn. In real life it seems that as the race begins there is uncertainty about exactly how long a tyre can last before it falls off a cliff. One way of doing this might be to draw a race card for each type of compound before the race begins and set aside, face down. The first time a compound of a certain type is on its penultimate turn before hitting its refueling chit, the card is revealed. If it is a 1, then that compound in this race actually lasts 1 turn less. If a 2 or 3 then it stays the same. If a 4 then it can go one turn further.

e.g.

car A starts on soft tyres (refuel chit on turn 8), while car B starts on medium tyres (refuel chit on turn 12). When it gets to turn 7 (the penultimate turn before the soft compound tyres fall off a cliff) then the face down card for soft tyres is revealed and the result applied. This result applies now for all soft tyre compounds. So if the result was a 4, all soft compound tyres would now last 9 turns. When car B gets to turn 11 (the penultimate turn before the tyres are scheduled to be considered too worn to be safe) the card for medium compound tyres is revealed and the result applied.

This may be overcomplicated and not worth the hassle, but it does sort of simulate the fact that teams often don't know exactly how long a certain tyre compound will actually last in a race until those compounds have been pushed to the limit in the race itself.

As to track cards, I think that hard tyres should probably get 1 track card, like medium compounds do. Two track cards seem it might be a bit too much of a bonus. Having said that, perhaps no track cards might be reasonable, to make the medium compound stand out more from the crowd!

 
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Enrico
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DRS: the idea of free overtaking in the main straight sounds good.
But, since in real racing DRS must be recharded by braking, an idea could be that one (and only one) free overtake can be performed only if player has before attempted at least one (or two) late brake in the same turn.
 
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René Christensen
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mae68it wrote:
DRS: the idea of free overtaking in the main straight sounds good.
But, since in real racing DRS must be recharded by braking, an idea could be that one (and only one) free overtake can be performed only if player has before attempted at least one (or two) late brake in the same turn.


I guess DRS is only for cars starting from the same space? You have to be within 1 sec to get the DRS.
 
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Enrico
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You're right. I forgot about this.

Slotracer wrote:
mae68it wrote:
DRS: the idea of free overtaking in the main straight sounds good.
But, since in real racing DRS must be recharded by braking, an idea could be that one (and only one) free overtake can be performed only if player has before attempted at least one (or two) late brake in the same turn.


I guess it's only for cars starting from the same space? You have to be within 1 sec to get the DRS.
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René Christensen
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mae68it wrote:
You're right. I forgot about this.

Slotracer wrote:
mae68it wrote:
DRS: the idea of free overtaking in the main straight sounds good.
But, since in real racing DRS must be recharded by braking, an idea could be that one (and only one) free overtake can be performed only if player has before attempted at least one (or two) late brake in the same turn.


I guess it's only for cars starting from the same space? You have to be within 1 sec to get the DRS.


So if two cars are in the same space in a corner, does the last car get DRS on the straight or is it only if you start and end in the staright?
Some straights aren't long enough for that.
 
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Enrico
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I'm thinking something like this: special counters representing the current level of DRS recharging should be used.

Each time player performs a late brake he gets one of these counters.
When the player has three (or two) of them he can consume them performing a free pass.
This free pass che be performed only on the main straight and only if at the beginning of the current turn player's car is on the same space or one space behind the car to be overtaken.


Slotracer wrote:
mae68it wrote:
You're right. I forgot about this.

Slotracer wrote:
mae68it wrote:
DRS: the idea of free overtaking in the main straight sounds good.
But, since in real racing DRS must be recharded by braking, an idea could be that one (and only one) free overtake can be performed only if player has before attempted at least one (or two) late brake in the same turn.


I guess it's only for cars starting from the same space? You have to be within 1 sec to get the DRS.


So if two cars are in the same space in a corner, does the last car get DRS on the straight or is it only if you start and end in the staright?
Some straights aren't long enough for that.
 
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Adam Rees
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mae68it wrote:
I'm thinking something like this: special counters representing the current level of DRS recharging should be used.

Each time player performs a late brake he gets one of these counters.
When the player has three (or two) of them he can consume them performing a free pass.
This free pass che be performed only on the main straight and only if at the beginning of the current turn player's car is on the same space or one space behind the car to be overtaken.


Could it not be for every late break you get 1 drs counter and then each free overtake on a drs straight costs you 1 counter? What i am really asking is it necessary to have to do so many late breakings to get drs, given drs can only occur on one straight on the track? Actually, come to think of it, some tracks have two drs zones!
 
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Enrico
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I can agree with you. How many late breaks are necessary to activate DRS and on how many straight it can be used are matters of balancing the rule.

Iorwerth wrote:
mae68it wrote:
I'm thinking something like this: special counters representing the current level of DRS recharging should be used.

Each time player performs a late brake he gets one of these counters.
When the player has three (or two) of them he can consume them performing a free pass.
This free pass che be performed only on the main straight and only if at the beginning of the current turn player's car is on the same space or one space behind the car to be overtaken.


Could it not be for every late break you get 1 drs counter and then each free overtake on a drs straight costs you 1 counter? What i am really asking is it necessary to have to do so many late breakings to get drs, given drs can only occur on one straight on the track? Actually, come to think of it, some tracks have two drs zones!
 
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Al Cott
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DRS is not a system that is 'charged'. It is a flap that opens on the rear wing. I think you are mixing it up with the battery/hybrid recharge system (MGU-K, was KERS).

Out of the previous ideas, I think the 'one free overtake on the start/finish straight if you started in the same space' works best.

It might not have to be even limited to the s/f straight. If you take the view that each game turn is multiple 'real' laps then starting in the same space could be enough. Would be very powerful though!
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Enrico
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I made a terrible confusion ... I was speaking about KERS.
DRS is the rear wing .... sorry sorry sorry cry cry
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Adam Rees
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well that sorts out that little bit at least!

I think although a turn can be multiple laps, for ease and feel of the thing i think DRS should only operate on the DRS zones on the track, wherever they might be.
 
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Enrico
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So the DRS rule should simply sound like this:
"A free pass che be performed only on the main straight or on straights where DRS is allowed and only if at the beginning of the current turn player's car is on the same space or one space behind the car to be overtaken."

Iorwerth wrote:
well that sorts out that little bit at least!

I think although a turn can be multiple laps, for ease and feel of the thing i think DRS should only operate on the DRS zones on the track, wherever they might be.
 
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Chris Laudermilk
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Missed out on that DRS discussion. I like Enrico's proposal; it models how DRS works, isn't too powerful, and if fairly simple.

I also like Adam's options 4 & 5 on the tires. It seems like a good balance of penalty. Not so sure about the random wear idea. I get where that is going, but it seems fiddly & there's already plenty to remember in this game.

Oh, and I am by no means any kind of expert on this game.
 
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Adam Rees
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Saw another thread (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1552639/questions-tyres) where Darrell Hanning came up with an idea for super-soft tyres - you get rid of 6 tyre chips but get 3 coloured chips that each count as +2. So like a souped up soft tyre.

Could use an idea like this, so hard would stay as hard in normal rules, medium compound would now work as softs, and soft compound would work like Hanning's supersoft idea. Only thing I am wondering about is whether removing 6 tyre chips is too huge an amount. Just an idea.
 
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