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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/diehardgames/apex-tdbg-...

Herschel Hoffmeyer wrote:
Thanks Scott for putting out that info, much appreciated (I know you love to put your skills to good use). One thing to note though is I'm closing the company Die-Hard Games and everything will be ran from my own personal bank account. The company has gone bankrupt after what ShipNaked and WinGo pulled on me. I was waiting to bring this up for awhile now but I quoted $15K (during the campaign's run) to cover fulfillment then got hit with a $35K paycheck later down the road (after huge delays from them, remember in November, trying to get the boat to set sail. I kept quiet on it then.). I would highly suggest no one to do business with them. See below for WinGo. Manufacturing alone was over $60K. These payments have already been filed in my taxes last year so they're on record.

No longer doing business with WinGo
The order was cancelled from WinGo due to them not wanting to pay for over 400 broken miniatures and many other errors made. They claim 'under-the-table' that they made the error but it was pretty detrimental to my bank account to have to cover them myself and reship them out. Many others are still waiting for another copy but my replacements are running low. If I cannot provide a replacement then you'll receive a partial refund each to the manufacturing cost of the mini.

The past months
I apologize for the few months of silence however I am back at fulfilling any missing items/orders/refunds as of today. I was backed into a corner with the company and had to take some time off and think about what the next appropriate step should be for the company and myself. I cannot handle the business side and the developer side at the same time. I have put my heart and soul into these products and the company to only come out losing money rather than making any. I also have a family (wife and two kids) who were basically neglected because I was so busy but were very supportive none the less. I focused on them for a couple of months, starting building a new career for myself to put food on the table, and decided I was doing more harm than good with this company. I have ceased all development on future projects and closing the door on DHG. However, I still plan on fulfilling all orders either by product delivery or refund. ShipNaked had quite a few Booster Decks left over so I will be sending those out asap. I also received the Ultra-Pro mats and will be mailing those out as well. Please understand everything from here on out is ran from my own pocket so it will take a few months to wrap this up and will be consistently mailing out rewards.

I understand some backers are upset with my performance and for that I sincerely apologize.

Thank you all for your support and patience. If you have a question, please message me here on Kickstarter and I'll answer it as soon as I can.
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This sucks on so many levels. I'm happy Herschel is back in action, that's a testimony to his character (unlike some others, looking at you Up Front). It's sad that DHG is shutting down, this game is very good and I was hoping for periodic expansion packs. It's sad that some folks will never see their game completed, these poor people are missing out by no fault of their own. Hopefully a publisher considers picking it up, but in the mean time if you are interested in the game, I think you can get the base game at a couple OLGS and once they are gone, sounds like they are gone for good. I'd snap the copies up quick. The game is great, the art is great, and who doesn't love dinosaurs?
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That is sad to hear. The game is very good. I think the biggest mistake he made was going silent rather than being open with his backers about what was going on. But I understand the pressure on him -- he was essentially a one-man team. I'm glad I got the game when I did. I have all the expansion decks. Nothing was wrong with my order when I got it, although I understand that wasn't the case for everyone.
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Bigsixer wrote:
This sucks on so many levels. I'm happy Herschel is back in action, that's a testimony to his character (unlike some others, looking at you Up Front). It's sad that DHG is shutting down, this game is very good and I was hoping for periodic expansion packs. It's sad that some folks will never see their game completed, these poor people are missing out by no fault of their own. Hopefully a publisher considers picking it up, but in the mean time if you are interested in the game, I think you can get the base game at a couple OLGS and once they are gone, sounds like they are gone for good. I'd snap the copies up quick. The game is great, the art is great, and who doesn't love dinosaurs?


Is the game really that good? Many have complained the battle royale res are terrible.
 
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Battle Royale is underwhelming, yes. But it's also such a small part of the game I don't think anyone misses if it's gone imo.

There are good variants (in the variants forum) that are more or less first edition MP rules with a few tweaks.
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foxstar74 wrote:
Bigsixer wrote:
This sucks on so many levels. I'm happy Herschel is back in action, that's a testimony to his character (unlike some others, looking at you Up Front). It's sad that DHG is shutting down, this game is very good and I was hoping for periodic expansion packs. It's sad that some folks will never see their game completed, these poor people are missing out by no fault of their own. Hopefully a publisher considers picking it up, but in the mean time if you are interested in the game, I think you can get the base game at a couple OLGS and once they are gone, sounds like they are gone for good. I'd snap the copies up quick. The game is great, the art is great, and who doesn't love dinosaurs?


Is the game really that good? Many have complained the battle royale res are terrible.


The Battle Royale is terrible, but the game is serviceable with some of the variants posted on BGG that essentially implement the solo rules with some tweaks to play multiplayer (similar to the first edition). However, the game still doesn't have much player interaction to speak of even with things like the infiltrate mechanic kept in, and I still really dislike that the cards allowing you to expand the chances you have to actually build your deck (eggs) may not always be available since they're shuffled in with the rest of the evolution cards. It's a fun game, but I think any critical look at its mechanics should conclude it really misses some opportunities to be much better than it is; I think that's a symptom of initially shoddy playtesting which resulted in huge mechanical changes after the end of the first Kickstarter campaign, and then not really ever getting the long, professional playtest treatment it needed moving forward from there.
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COGGaming wrote:
foxstar74 wrote:
Bigsixer wrote:
This sucks on so many levels. I'm happy Herschel is back in action, that's a testimony to his character (unlike some others, looking at you Up Front). It's sad that DHG is shutting down, this game is very good and I was hoping for periodic expansion packs. It's sad that some folks will never see their game completed, these poor people are missing out by no fault of their own. Hopefully a publisher considers picking it up, but in the mean time if you are interested in the game, I think you can get the base game at a couple OLGS and once they are gone, sounds like they are gone for good. I'd snap the copies up quick. The game is great, the art is great, and who doesn't love dinosaurs?


Is the game really that good? Many have complained the battle royale res are terrible.


The Battle Royale is terrible, but the game is serviceable with some of the variants posted on BGG that essentially implement the solo rules with some tweaks to play multiplayer (similar to the first edition). However, the game still doesn't have much player interaction to speak of even with things like the infiltrate mechanic kept in, and I still really dislike that the cards allowing you to expand the chances you have to actually build your deck (eggs) may not always be available since they're shuffled in with the rest of the evolution cards. It's a fun game, but I think any critical look at its mechanics should conclude it really misses some opportunities to be much better than it is; I think that's a symptom of initially shoddy playtesting which resulted in huge mechanical changes after the end of the first Kickstarter campaign, and then not really ever getting the long, professional playtest treatment it needed moving forward from there.


I disagree with nearly everything you say here. Yes, the Battle Royale is not great, but there are other ways to play. I primarily play it solo, and I think it really shines this way. As for the eggs, I honestly don't know what you are talking about. You start with some eggs in your deck, the evolve deck is full of them and you will have ample opportunities to add them. If you play a game and that's not the case, eh, that's how life works too, you don't always get what you want. Make die with what you have, as best you can. I don't feel there are any missed opportunities as you call them, except for the lackluster Battle Royale. In fact the way the decks all play out differently coupled with the variety of the encounters and evolutions are all nearly perfect in my book. That's my .02 anyway.
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I still use the first edition rules which use the Boss battle in the multiplayer for the end game instead of Battle Royale and it is fine.
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Bigsixer wrote:
COGGaming wrote:
foxstar74 wrote:
Bigsixer wrote:
This sucks on so many levels. I'm happy Herschel is back in action, that's a testimony to his character (unlike some others, looking at you Up Front). It's sad that DHG is shutting down, this game is very good and I was hoping for periodic expansion packs. It's sad that some folks will never see their game completed, these poor people are missing out by no fault of their own. Hopefully a publisher considers picking it up, but in the mean time if you are interested in the game, I think you can get the base game at a couple OLGS and once they are gone, sounds like they are gone for good. I'd snap the copies up quick. The game is great, the art is great, and who doesn't love dinosaurs?


Is the game really that good? Many have complained the battle royale res are terrible.


The Battle Royale is terrible, but the game is serviceable with some of the variants posted on BGG that essentially implement the solo rules with some tweaks to play multiplayer (similar to the first edition). However, the game still doesn't have much player interaction to speak of even with things like the infiltrate mechanic kept in, and I still really dislike that the cards allowing you to expand the chances you have to actually build your deck (eggs) may not always be available since they're shuffled in with the rest of the evolution cards. It's a fun game, but I think any critical look at its mechanics should conclude it really misses some opportunities to be much better than it is; I think that's a symptom of initially shoddy playtesting which resulted in huge mechanical changes after the end of the first Kickstarter campaign, and then not really ever getting the long, professional playtest treatment it needed moving forward from there.


I disagree with nearly everything you say here. Yes, the Battle Royale is not great, but there are other ways to play. I primarily play it solo, and I think it really shines this way. As for the eggs, I honestly don't know what you are talking about. You start with some eggs in your deck, the evolve deck is full of them and you will have ample opportunities to add them. If you play a game and that's not the case, eh, that's how life works too, you don't always get what you want. Make die with what you have, as best you can. I don't feel there are any missed opportunities as you call them, except for the lackluster Battle Royale. In fact the way the decks all play out differently coupled with the variety of the encounters and evolutions are all nearly perfect in my book. That's my .02 anyway.


I think one of the issues is that if one person buys the eggs that are available on the first turn, and no more or very few others come out, that person ends up with a distinct advantage.

I agree that the battle royale is underwhelming. Using the solo boss rules, adding one boss per player, and just playing for points, that seems to be a fun way to play.

I love the idea of the game, I love the feel of the game, and playing it solo is a fantastic experience. Each dinosaur feels different, which can't be said for most other deck building games. The part where it fails for me is when playing multiplayer, there are just some card draws that can happen early on in the game which can just destroy someone's chances of winning. It's disheartening playing a game when on turn 2 you know you have no chance of winning.
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While I agree with you the timing of eggs in MP can be problematic, I don't think it spells certain doom for a player who doesn't get in early. It does make it way harder than it should be for certain Apexes however (e.g. Velociraptor)

I've been toying around with an idea that shuffles the egg cards into each players apex deck. That way, no single player can get shut out of that specific evolve card due to reveal timing.

Granted, this is probably only possible since I own enough copies of the game to distribute enough eggs for several players' apex decks. (1st edition kickstarter, 1st edition retail version, 2nd edition KS, 2nd edition retail version)
 
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Bigsixer wrote:
COGGaming wrote:
foxstar74 wrote:
Bigsixer wrote:
This sucks on so many levels. I'm happy Herschel is back in action, that's a testimony to his character (unlike some others, looking at you Up Front). It's sad that DHG is shutting down, this game is very good and I was hoping for periodic expansion packs. It's sad that some folks will never see their game completed, these poor people are missing out by no fault of their own. Hopefully a publisher considers picking it up, but in the mean time if you are interested in the game, I think you can get the base game at a couple OLGS and once they are gone, sounds like they are gone for good. I'd snap the copies up quick. The game is great, the art is great, and who doesn't love dinosaurs?


Is the game really that good? Many have complained the battle royale res are terrible.


The Battle Royale is terrible, but the game is serviceable with some of the variants posted on BGG that essentially implement the solo rules with some tweaks to play multiplayer (similar to the first edition). However, the game still doesn't have much player interaction to speak of even with things like the infiltrate mechanic kept in, and I still really dislike that the cards allowing you to expand the chances you have to actually build your deck (eggs) may not always be available since they're shuffled in with the rest of the evolution cards. It's a fun game, but I think any critical look at its mechanics should conclude it really misses some opportunities to be much better than it is; I think that's a symptom of initially shoddy playtesting which resulted in huge mechanical changes after the end of the first Kickstarter campaign, and then not really ever getting the long, professional playtest treatment it needed moving forward from there.


I disagree with nearly everything you say here. Yes, the Battle Royale is not great, but there are other ways to play. I primarily play it solo, and I think it really shines this way. As for the eggs, I honestly don't know what you are talking about. You start with some eggs in your deck, the evolve deck is full of them and you will have ample opportunities to add them. If you play a game and that's not the case, eh, that's how life works too, you don't always get what you want. Make die with what you have, as best you can. I don't feel there are any missed opportunities as you call them, except for the lackluster Battle Royale. In fact the way the decks all play out differently coupled with the variety of the encounters and evolutions are all nearly perfect in my book. That's my .02 anyway.


The game is much better solo, and the multiplayer is made much better using multi-person variants on the solo rules with boss point victory conditions, but the multiplayer's player interaction is still minimal and has terrible risk/reward, and although you may not see a problem with the eggs much in solo it definitely comes out in multiplayer. IIRC you only start with one egg, not "some," and if no egg cards come out in the flip, or if the people before you in turn order take them and more don't come out, then you're essentially stuck and not able to expand your deck's ability to hunt well or build as needed after the initial environment cards. The game isn't long enough or easy enough for you to miss out on a couple of turns of foundation building, which essentially sets you up for failure for the rest of the game. Brushing that kind of problem off as "eh, that's how life works," just doesnt fly when critically analyzing how a game functions. It's a mechanical issue when playing with other people. There's a reason many other major deck builders, including the ones Apex takes inspiration from, divorce some of the basic/foundation cards from the randomness of the draw and make them available in their own stacks to be purchased at any time.

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Scott Sexton
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xBino wrote:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/diehardgames/apex-tdbg-...

Herschel Hoffmeyer wrote:
Thanks Scott for putting out that info, much appreciated (I know you love to put your skills to good use). One thing to note though is I'm closing the company Die-Hard Games and everything will be ran from my own personal bank account. The company has gone bankrupt after what ShipNaked and WinGo pulled on me. I was waiting to bring this up for awhile now but I quoted $15K (during the campaign's run) to cover fulfillment then got hit with a $35K paycheck later down the road (after huge delays from them, remember in November, trying to get the boat to set sail. I kept quiet on it then.). I would highly suggest no one to do business with them. See below for WinGo. Manufacturing alone was over $60K. These payments have already been filed in my taxes last year so they're on record.

No longer doing business with WinGo
The order was cancelled from WinGo due to them not wanting to pay for over 400 broken miniatures and many other errors made. They claim 'under-the-table' that they made the error but it was pretty detrimental to my bank account to have to cover them myself and reship them out. Many others are still waiting for another copy but my replacements are running low. If I cannot provide a replacement then you'll receive a partial refund each to the manufacturing cost of the mini.

The past months
I apologize for the few months of silence however I am back at fulfilling any missing items/orders/refunds as of today. I was backed into a corner with the company and had to take some time off and think about what the next appropriate step should be for the company and myself. I cannot handle the business side and the developer side at the same time. I have put my heart and soul into these products and the company to only come out losing money rather than making any. I also have a family (wife and two kids) who were basically neglected because I was so busy but were very supportive none the less. I focused on them for a couple of months, starting building a new career for myself to put food on the table, and decided I was doing more harm than good with this company. I have ceased all development on future projects and closing the door on DHG. However, I still plan on fulfilling all orders either by product delivery or refund. ShipNaked had quite a few Booster Decks left over so I will be sending those out asap. I also received the Ultra-Pro mats and will be mailing those out as well. Please understand everything from here on out is ran from my own pocket so it will take a few months to wrap this up and will be consistently mailing out rewards.

I understand some backers are upset with my performance and for that I sincerely apologize.

Thank you all for your support and patience. If you have a question, please message me here on Kickstarter and I'll answer it as soon as I can.


All I see here are excuses and empty promises. If he really cared about the backers he would have replied to them before word got out about how to file complaints. If he really cared about backers he'd post the cards to BGG and/or drivethrucards.com.

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Quote:

All I see here are excuses and empty promises. If he really cared about the backers he would have replied to them before word got out about how to file complaints. If he really cared about backers he'd post the cards to BGG and/or drivethrucards.com.


This.
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scottatlaw wrote:
xBino wrote:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/diehardgames/apex-tdbg-...

Herschel Hoffmeyer wrote:
Thanks Scott for putting out that info, much appreciated (I know you love to put your skills to good use). One thing to note though is I'm closing the company Die-Hard Games and everything will be ran from my own personal bank account. The company has gone bankrupt after what ShipNaked and WinGo pulled on me. I was waiting to bring this up for awhile now but I quoted $15K (during the campaign's run) to cover fulfillment then got hit with a $35K paycheck later down the road (after huge delays from them, remember in November, trying to get the boat to set sail. I kept quiet on it then.). I would highly suggest no one to do business with them. See below for WinGo. Manufacturing alone was over $60K. These payments have already been filed in my taxes last year so they're on record.

No longer doing business with WinGo
The order was cancelled from WinGo due to them not wanting to pay for over 400 broken miniatures and many other errors made. They claim 'under-the-table' that they made the error but it was pretty detrimental to my bank account to have to cover them myself and reship them out. Many others are still waiting for another copy but my replacements are running low. If I cannot provide a replacement then you'll receive a partial refund each to the manufacturing cost of the mini.

The past months
I apologize for the few months of silence however I am back at fulfilling any missing items/orders/refunds as of today. I was backed into a corner with the company and had to take some time off and think about what the next appropriate step should be for the company and myself. I cannot handle the business side and the developer side at the same time. I have put my heart and soul into these products and the company to only come out losing money rather than making any. I also have a family (wife and two kids) who were basically neglected because I was so busy but were very supportive none the less. I focused on them for a couple of months, starting building a new career for myself to put food on the table, and decided I was doing more harm than good with this company. I have ceased all development on future projects and closing the door on DHG. However, I still plan on fulfilling all orders either by product delivery or refund. ShipNaked had quite a few Booster Decks left over so I will be sending those out asap. I also received the Ultra-Pro mats and will be mailing those out as well. Please understand everything from here on out is ran from my own pocket so it will take a few months to wrap this up and will be consistently mailing out rewards.

I understand some backers are upset with my performance and for that I sincerely apologize.

Thank you all for your support and patience. If you have a question, please message me here on Kickstarter and I'll answer it as soon as I can.


All I see here are excuses and empty promises. If he really cared about the backers he would have replied to them before word got out about how to file complaints. If he really cared about backers he'd post the cards to BGG and/or drivethrucards.com.



When I read that first sentence I started to laugh (I think HH has something personal with you Scott, I don't know why ).
Obviously, he appears not because he wanted to but because he HAS TO due some complaint that got to him. And he is pissed off with the people who complains... He always blame the backer for all his miscalculations (anybody said "shipping costs"?) and wrong choices (anybody said "1500 boxes scrapped"?) and now, after more than 5 months of silence, he is blaming us again for complaining about the project going south... That's as lame as his lame excuse about not posting an official update... 50% of the orders are fulfilled, so what's the problem with only 350 discontent people? And the explanation about the website... "The consumer (you and other backers) needs to know nothing outside of what they paid, their chosen reward, and fulfillment of that reward or refund", so if he decides to run with all your money you should not get angry and ask anything... That's not your business.
And every chance he has, he try to blame us for the family he decided to put aside and his financial problems and the money he is giving us from his own pockets...
It's pathetic... A real shame.
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In his defense, I'm not seeing the message that you guys are seeing. I don't see any shifting of blame to the customer at all -- if anything he says he's going to try to fulfill the orders and those he can't will get a refund.

As for the long silence, as was pointed out elsewhere, part of that *may* have been at the recommendation of legal guidance. Of course, I have no proof of that, but I do know from other kinds of experience through friends that that is a realistic assumption.

That's not me saying he did it right and he should be exempt from criticism. However, some of this criticism I'm seeing seems to be of the "Extra Venom" type. He clearly bit off more than he could chew and made deals seemingly without legally binding documentation, but I don't consider him to be the Super Villain some of you are making him out to be.
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I'm just really sad we'll never see this: (or much of anything else for that matter)

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Thud105 wrote:
In his defense, I'm not seeing the message that you guys are seeing. I don't see any shifting of blame to the customer at all -- if anything he says he's going to try to fulfill the orders and those he can't will get a refund.

As for the long silence, as was pointed out elsewhere, part of that *may* have been at the recommendation of legal guidance. Of course, I have no proof of that, but I do know from other kinds of experience through friends that that is a realistic assumption.

That's not me saying he did it right and he should be exempt from criticism. However, some of this criticism I'm seeing seems to be of the "Extra Venom" type. He clearly bit off more than he could chew and made deals seemingly without legally binding documentation, but I don't consider him to be the Super Villain some of you are making him out to be.


I agree with you. I don't see any blame shifting. Whether or not that statement was issued because of some forced hand or not, only HH really knows. If what HH has said is true, and I'm not trying to imply doubt here, then it pretty much sucks for everyone. But, at least now I know what happened and where we stand, generally. I'm not exactly sure how many upgrade decks are left or if everyone of us who didn't get one will get one eventually, so a little more info on that front would be appreciated.
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COGGaming wrote:
Bigsixer wrote:
COGGaming wrote:
foxstar74 wrote:
Bigsixer wrote:
This sucks on so many levels. I'm happy Herschel is back in action, that's a testimony to his character (unlike some others, looking at you Up Front). It's sad that DHG is shutting down, this game is very good and I was hoping for periodic expansion packs. It's sad that some folks will never see their game completed, these poor people are missing out by no fault of their own. Hopefully a publisher considers picking it up, but in the mean time if you are interested in the game, I think you can get the base game at a couple OLGS and once they are gone, sounds like they are gone for good. I'd snap the copies up quick. The game is great, the art is great, and who doesn't love dinosaurs?


Is the game really that good? Many have complained the battle royale res are terrible.


The Battle Royale is terrible, but the game is serviceable with some of the variants posted on BGG that essentially implement the solo rules with some tweaks to play multiplayer (similar to the first edition). However, the game still doesn't have much player interaction to speak of even with things like the infiltrate mechanic kept in, and I still really dislike that the cards allowing you to expand the chances you have to actually build your deck (eggs) may not always be available since they're shuffled in with the rest of the evolution cards. It's a fun game, but I think any critical look at its mechanics should conclude it really misses some opportunities to be much better than it is; I think that's a symptom of initially shoddy playtesting which resulted in huge mechanical changes after the end of the first Kickstarter campaign, and then not really ever getting the long, professional playtest treatment it needed moving forward from there.


I disagree with nearly everything you say here. Yes, the Battle Royale is not great, but there are other ways to play. I primarily play it solo, and I think it really shines this way. As for the eggs, I honestly don't know what you are talking about. You start with some eggs in your deck, the evolve deck is full of them and you will have ample opportunities to add them. If you play a game and that's not the case, eh, that's how life works too, you don't always get what you want. Make die with what you have, as best you can. I don't feel there are any missed opportunities as you call them, except for the lackluster Battle Royale. In fact the way the decks all play out differently coupled with the variety of the encounters and evolutions are all nearly perfect in my book. That's my .02 anyway.


The game is much better solo, and the multiplayer is made much better using multi-person variants on the solo rules with boss point victory conditions, but the multiplayer's player interaction is still minimal and has terrible risk/reward, and although you may not see a problem with the eggs much in solo it definitely comes out in multiplayer. IIRC you only start with one egg, not "some," and if no egg cards come out in the flip, or if the people before you in turn order take them and more don't come out, then you're essentially stuck and not able to expand your deck's ability to hunt well or build as needed after the initial environment cards. The game isn't long enough or easy enough for you to miss out on a couple of turns of foundation building, which essentially sets you up for failure for the rest of the game. Brushing that kind of problem off as "eh, that's how life works," just doesnt fly when critically analyzing how a game functions. It's a mechanical issue when playing with other people. There's a reason many other major deck builders, including the ones Apex takes inspiration from, divorce some of the basic/foundation cards from the randomness of the draw and make them available in their own stacks to be purchased at any time.



The next time I play multiplayer, we're going to pull all of the egg cards out of the evolve deck, and set them aside for anyone to purchase at any time, with a limit of 1 per turn. This should make some of the other evolve cards come out a little more often, and even things out a bit for everyone.

This still won't fix some of the huge swings in randomness, though. I really want to love this game with multiple people, but for me it really shines as a solo game, where the randomness can be seen more as a challenge, instead of ruining the game for someone who happens to have bad luck on the first few hands.
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Toni
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Finally an explanation about why I don't have any reply of my MANY mails during the past months asking for replacements for my boxes that came broken... Seems that I'll never have my replacements... I would have apprecciated a reply though... One of the worst kickstarter I invested my money.
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David Valadez
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Villa Park
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"RAWR!" means "I love you" in kaiju.
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xBino wrote:
I'm just really sad we'll never see this: (or much of anything else for that matter)


He really could put this on drivethrucards.com and still make a little bit of money from it.
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Martin Gallo
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sputang wrote:
xBino wrote:
I'm just really sad we'll never see this: (or much of anything else for that matter)


He really could put this on drivethrucards.com and still make a little bit of money from it.
Same for the expansion and conversion decks.
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