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High Frontier (3rd edition)» Forums » General

Subject: Would you buy High Frontier 3rd Edition Twice to Support Phil Eklund and SMG? rss

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Will H.
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Poll
Given that the Ares/OSS KickStarter campaign for High Frontier 3rd Edition is now over a year late, and updates have become infrequent, it appears that this game may not ship.

If Ares/OSS does not ship by October 2017, Phil Eklund (the original game designer) has offered to complete and ship the game for free.

My question is simple:

Would you purchase the game twice to help defray the costs? I believe High Frontier is well worth the price, as is ensuring Phil does not bear the brunt of the cost of the failed Ares/OSS KickStarter.
Yes
No
      147 answers
Poll created by gar0u
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Michael Drog
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I have already paid for the game. I don't want to pay twice.
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Michael Noakes
United Kingdom
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October 2017 is still a year off. Personally, I still feel confident the game will ship, and don't really care about the delay--it's just a game. It's not like a kickstarted needed medication.

But buy two versions of a game I've already supported? Why would I do that?
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Dave Daffin
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While I was really excited for this game when I backed it, I've soured to the whole sorry saga. Leaving Earth and its expansions have arrived since, and now there is Kepler to come soon, which will probably suit me better anyway and give me my future space exploration kick without the heavy rule set.
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Andrew Denison
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I would because its not Phil Eklund's fault if it doesnt get made by Ares. I also really respect him as a designer and understand he would be taking a loss to help,the backers out. I also have the money or would by then abd I want to see Serra Madre games on an upward trend without a giant downward trend because of this. I understand those who cant afford to do it but if you have the money and respect Phil Eklund I dont see why you wouldn't.
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Georg Bauer
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well, if Phil Eklund would male a version and sell it through SMG, I would be in for that one. I didn't go for the KS, so I wouldn't buy it twice, but would buy it once. And with SMG, I would go fir a preorder for this one.
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Forty One
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In an instant. Given that I own and have enjoyed many of Phil's games, I would not want this potential issue, to affect in any way, his ability to continue producing games.
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Brett Burleigh II
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As much as I will instabuy an Eklund title, I can't drop double the price for the game... If I were to go that route, I'd get a refund and buy the second edition at OOP prices now.

Paying another $99 for HF next October, and waiting til probably the following spring or summer or fall for 4e? - Not to my tastes (yes, I pledged for an autographed copy).

Some things to consider:

1 - a game's MSRP should be approximately 5x landed cost (more or less) - given I'm no employee of SMG, their multiplier could be higher or lower. If the retail is $70ish, the cost per unit is most likely $15 - $20(ish)/unit. I'd pledge cost to offset the costs to SMG.

2 - Phil licensed 3e because 2015 was so packed with production already. Neanderthal, Greenland 2e, Pax Pamir, Pax Porf deluxe English... Not only were there multiple irons in the fire, most of SMG's capital was tied up in production costs and Phil admitted he could not cover all of the costs, let alone give 3e the time and effort needed to see it through to the defining edition status we're all pining for.

3 - if Ares fails, lawsuit. I know this would be a real shit storm, so I won't even add anything beyond this as a point for consideration. Phil publicly acknowledged he received a cut of the funds, which, if memory serves, would cover about half of the production costs for 4e ($17k = ~1k units).

If Phil printed, say 4000 copies (or thereabouts), the 2k required for backers and preorders would leave the other half to recoup costs.

Whatever, it's all speculation from my cell phone.
Ultimately, I place complete trust in Phil. He's been nothing but a straight shooter with me, and has never balked at correcting errors (whether it is orders placed, missing parts, rules, etc), and he's generally one of the more congenial game designers on the Geek.

Couldn't be more chuffed to receive the 3e or 4e... Whatever the wait.
Maybe there'll be humans on Mars by that time!
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Bwian, just
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I still haven't played my copy of Colonization. So while I would be annoyed to be out a copy of third edition, I wouldn't be annoyed enough to pay for it a second time.
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suPUR DUEper
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I think a better poll would be, if you could, how much would you sell your "High Frontier Kickstarter right" for?

For me:
- I want the game
- I went into this eyes wide open knowing that a delay could be possible
- I feel confident that I will get the game

Thus, even though I paid 70 bucks, I would not sell my "share" for less than $150 at this time.

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Andy Leighton
England
Peterborough
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I didn't KS the game.

However I would pay for a copy in retail, or mail-order from Phil (if it ships from within the EU).
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suPUR DUEper
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gar0u wrote:
updates have become infrequent,

There is almost no reason for them to post updates any more. The backers have pretty much polarized into two factions at this point: believers and complainers. Believers don't need the updates and the complainers will not be satisfied with anything Ares/OSS says. If I was them, I would shut my communication down and spend all my energy getting the product out the door.

I would also hope that someone would send out an email to all my backers which explained the difference between backing a project and buying a product. Apparently that distinction is lost on a whole lot of folks.
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Rich James
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If Ares doesn't ship this game and Phil subsequently offers it for sale on the SMG website, yes, I'd buy a copy. If Phil produces and sends me a copy because Ares didn't deliver, then I doubt I would buy another copy from the SMG site. If it turned out Phil was killing himself financially and harming SMG's ability to produce other games in the future, then I'd probably buy a second copy. I like Phil's games very much and it wouldn't be a significant financial hit for me to pay in those circumstances.
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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It's a game company, not a charity. I love Phil's games and buy most of them (once). In my book that constitutes support. Kickstarters are not even on my radar, and bailing one out even less so.
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Lior A
Israel
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Too many guys tend to panic in HF3rd forums.

Ares will deliver and if not, they will return the money. They are not some unknown publisher who can just disappear like that without giving any compensation or go bankrupt.
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I legally own hundreds of polyhedral assault dice!
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I have copies of both previous editions. So I've already invested in two copies.

As often as I've played them, buying it a third time would be laughable.
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Will H.
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Brett: Thanks for posting. You shared some very interesting information I have not heard before.

Super: I agree, no post is going to sway either camp at this point. I do think it's irresponsible for Ares/OSS to stop communicating with backers though. At least post a final update that you are focusing on the game and not to expect further updates for a month or two--until there is some progress to report.

The sole purpose of my poll was to gauge support for spreading out the financial responsibility for Ares/OSS failed campaign. As others have pointed out, we still have a year to see what happens.

For me, board games are a hobby and a luxury. I will most definitely purchase at least one board game in 2018. I would happily buy one less, or "pay twice" for High Frontier if it helped Phil and SMG continue to produce great games.

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Dom Rougier
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Yeah, I would, but I don't expect most people to agree.

Kickstarter is always a gamble. If the gamble doesn't pay off, then that sucks, but it's not like this wasn't clear going in. Perfectly reasonable to be unhappy about that, but I believe the risks are made clear - not perhaps from Ares, but from Kickstarter in general.

High Frontier is solidly one of my favorite games ever. It's complex, obtuse and weird, but underneath that is a really deep competitive game, dealing expertly with a subject matter both fascinating and really important.

I want a copy of High Frontier 3rd edition. If this ended up costing me double then I wouldn't be happy about it, but I'm still going to do it.

I'm still hopeful that it won't come to this. It seems so unlikely that this could completely fail.
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Dan Depends
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Badigel wrote:
Too many guys tend to panic in HF3rd forums.

Ares will deliver and if not, they will return the money. They are not some unknown publisher who can just disappear like that without giving any compensation or go bankrupt.

The kickstarter is being run by Ares magazine who pretty much are an unknown/backyard publisher. No relation to Ares games (a la Wings of Glory).

I would pay for a copy from Phil, but thats not paying twice as I avoided the kickstarter due to the poor comms during the campaign.

I
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Lou Lessing
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I decided not to risk the Kickstarter (too many red flags, as others have said,) so I'd be buying it for the first time, but definitely. If the KS doesn't deliver and Phil ends up covering the cost for all those pledges, that'd be one of the most impressive actions I've ever seen a game designer undertake just to take care of their fans. I'll buy a copy of High Frontier and one of everything else SMG has in-stock.

Badigel wrote:
Too many guys tend to panic in HF3rd forums.

Ares will deliver and if not, they will return the money. They are not some unknown publisher who can just disappear like that without giving any compensation or go bankrupt.


Not that I think you should panic, they're not *that* late yet, but:

Regardless of how well-known the creators are, failed Kickstarters returning money is incredibly rare. Usually, by the time a Kickstarter is decisively unsuccessful, there's none of the Kickstarter money left. This is almost by definition -- when they run out of money, if the project's not finished, there's no clear way to continue it, and the project creators disband and stop work. Realizing that you won't be able to finish well before the money runs out like that requires planning, foresight, a good understanding of your own company's logistics. Project creators with those attributes usually deliver their projects. It's been known to happen, but it's incredibly rare.

Meanwhile, Ares is already refusing refunds to individual backers requesting them... There's a decent chance Ares will deliver High Frontier, but I don't think there's a chance of everyone getting their money back if they don't.
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Chester
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I would buy a copy.
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Colm McCarthy
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Itdepends wrote:
Badigel wrote:
Too many guys tend to panic in HF3rd forums.

Ares will deliver and if not, they will return the money. They are not some unknown publisher who can just disappear like that without giving any compensation or go bankrupt.

The kickstarter is being run by Ares magazine who pretty much are an unknown/backyard publisher. No relation to Ares games (a la Wings of Glory).

I would pay for a copy from Phil, but thats not paying twice as I avoided the kickstarter due to the poor comms during the campaign.

I


Ares Magazine/One Small Step Games have published dozens of games since the early 1990's. They're small, but they are hardly an unknown publisher.
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Steve Carey
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TedW wrote:
I would also hope that someone would send out an email to all my backers which explained the difference between backing a project and buying a product. Apparently that distinction is lost on a whole lot of folks.


Please stop making such condescending statements, it's not doing anyone any good at all.

We all (should) know by now just how Kickstarter works, that's not the issue here. The issue is that we love Eklund/HF and would like to have the product in our collective hands as promised (and paid for).

Add to this the test of faith that the KS campaign represents, and Ares/OSS has (so far) failed that test miserably.

Ironic that things have reached the point that the faithful are now complaining more about the complainers than the actual complaining being done by the complainers themselves.

Please stop.
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Derry Salewski
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Skipped this shit kickstarter.

Definitely was hoping to buy it once though!

Still will if the opportunity presents itself.
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Steve Carey
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TedW wrote:
gar0u wrote:
updates have become infrequent,

There is almost no reason for them to post updates any more.


You're really missing the point. The problem is that Ares/OSS is talking in double-speak in their "updates" and are not providing anything of substance at all. In fact, they've misled backers (whether intentionally or not) several times. This is why some backers are so frustrated.

Updates are a customary feature of KS campaigns, and to use the excuse that "complainers" make it OK for Ares/OSS not to post further updates is just ridiculous.

I think you'd find that if they posted something tangible - say some art samples - then people would respond positively.

But they haven't.
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