$18.00
GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters: 132.1

7,748 Supporters

$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
48.8% of Goal | left

Support:

Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
38 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Everything Else » Religion, Sex, and Politics

Subject: Time to Change the History Books...Again? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Stuart
Canada
flag msg tools
mb
(Just trying to change things up from all the US election talk)

So now that the history books have been changed(hopefully) to edit out Columbus as the first European to reach America, it looks like maybe they have to be edited again to remove Marco Polo as the first significant European visitor to have reached China, per the BBC,

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-37624943

Apparently the program will be on BBC Two tomorrow night, if any of the Brits here want to watch; perhaps you could give us your feedback on whether these researchers really have anything or not?


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
mbmbmbmbmb
Um, ancient contacts are well established. They were largely lost to at least Western European during the Middle Ages.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stuart
Canada
flag msg tools
mb
whac3 wrote:
Um, ancient contacts are well established. They were largely lost to at least Western European during the Middle Ages.


So you would agree there is something to the idea that the Greeks visited China even before the Romans, then?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Happy Holidays! ABCDEFGHIJK MNOPQRSTUVWXYZ
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
In memorium. Bob Hoover died 25 Oct 2016 at 94. In WWII he was shot down in a Spitfire and stole an FW-190 to escape. He spent decades at air shows flying Ole Yeller, shown
badge
Please contact me about board gaming in Orange County.
mbmbmbmbmb
I can't say I really have a detailed handle on all the different expeditions from all the different cultures, but....

Following the coast is a pretty easy form of navigation. With a boat that can be beached, you can just land to avoid storms. This would apply to all the major ship-building heritages I'm aware of: Egyptian (papyrus hull), European (wooden shell hull), Chinese (wooden bulkheaded hull--junks), and Polynesian (pontoons and outriggers).

The Polynesians, who I don't think ever matched the size of European or Chinese ships, navigated to Hawaii, which is in the middle of nothing: it's one thing to hop from island to island, but Tahiti is 2626 miles/4226 km (per Google) from Hawaii, and California is almost as far again; Polynesians influenced some native American tribe(s?)

We've also found Roman(?) shipwrecks in South America.

So, pretty much, everyone could have been everywhere, long before anyone was writing things down durably. And the logs of trading ships were sometimes considered secret, so....
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Based upon my poor understanding of history, science, and ethics...
United States
North Pole
Alaska
flag msg tools
gamesterinns wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Um, ancient contacts are well established. They were largely lost to at least Western European during the Middle Ages.


So you would agree there is something to the idea that the Greeks visited China even before the Romans, then?


Didn't Alexander the Great fight skirmishes with Chinese on the border of his empire, and trade with them? I think the trade was substantial. Might have even been diplomats to Greece.

Seems like that is something clawing at the edge of my memory.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Carter
United States
North Liberty
Iowa
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Koldfoot wrote:
gamesterinns wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Um, ancient contacts are well established. They were largely lost to at least Western European during the Middle Ages.


So you would agree there is something to the idea that the Greeks visited China even before the Romans, then?


Didn't Alexander the Great fight skirmishes with Chinese on the border of his empire, and trade with them? I think the trade was substantial. Might have even been diplomats to Greece.

Seems like that is something clawing at the edge of my memory.


I'm pretty sure Alexander only made it to India.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Based upon my poor understanding of history, science, and ethics...
United States
North Pole
Alaska
flag msg tools
This sounds more like it: the eastern remnants of Alexander's empire. This rings a bell.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_Kingdom
2 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
mbmbmbmbmb
gamesterinns wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Um, ancient contacts are well established. They were largely lost to at least Western European during the Middle Ages.


So you would agree there is something to the idea that the Greeks visited China even before the Romans, then?

I was referring to diplomatic and economic contacts via the Silk Route which precedes the Greeks as well.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Damian
United States
Enfield
Connecticut
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Tall_Walt wrote:
We've also found Roman(?) shipwrecks in South America.

No this isn't true. There are some jars in Brasil that resemble Roman amphorae and some people claim they came from Roman shipwrecks, that's as far as it goes. There have definitely not been any actual Roman shipwrecks found anywhere near the Americas.

While there is loads of pre-Columbian contact with the Americas from Europe, Asia and Oceania there is nothing reliably dated before about the 10th century Norse from Europe. There is definite evidence of Oceanic contact via the sweet potato, but it's hard to reliably date and anything before the 10th century is conjecture.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Dearlove
United Kingdom
Isleworth
Middx
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Tall_Walt wrote:
I can't say I really have a detailed handle on all the different expeditions from all the different cultures, but....

Following the coast is a pretty easy form of navigation. With a boat that can be beached, you can just land to avoid storms. This would apply to all the major ship-building heritages I'm aware of: Egyptian (papyrus hull), European (wooden shell hull), Chinese (wooden bulkheaded hull--junks), and Polynesian (pontoons and outriggers).

The Polynesians, who I don't think ever matched the size of European or Chinese ships, navigated to Hawaii, which is in the middle of nothing: it's one thing to hop from island to island, but Tahiti is 2626 miles/4226 km (per Google) from Hawaii, and California is almost as far again; Polynesians influenced some native American tribe(s?)

We've also found Roman(?) shipwrecks in South America.

So, pretty much, everyone could have been everywhere, long before anyone was writing things down durably. And the logs of trading ships were sometimes considered secret, so....

I would be fascinated to hear of Roman Shipwrecks in South America as there are no such things.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Dearlove
United Kingdom
Isleworth
Middx
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Koldfoot wrote:
gamesterinns wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Um, ancient contacts are well established. They were largely lost to at least Western European during the Middle Ages.


So you would agree there is something to the idea that the Greeks visited China even before the Romans, then?


Didn't Alexander the Great fight skirmishes with Chinese on the border of his empire, and trade with them? I think the trade was substantial. Might have even been diplomats to Greece.

Seems like that is something clawing at the edge of my memory.

No. The Han Empire which reached central Asia was later. There were several contacts in the first and second centuries CE. But there were the Kushan and Parthian empires in between who guarded their portion of the silk road.
There is an account of some merchants during the time of Marcus Aurielius who reached China and claimed they were an embassy from the Emperor but it is all conjectural.
There is also an account of a Roman (Greek) sail around who missed Shrivenham Lanka and met Chinese ships somewhere that might be Cambodia. It all a bit conjectural. I have a couple of books on the subject of Roman contacts outside the Empire.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Dearlove
United Kingdom
Isleworth
Middx
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
damiangerous wrote:
Tall_Walt wrote:
We've also found Roman(?) shipwrecks in South America.

No this isn't true. There are some jars in Brasil that resemble Roman amphorae and some people claim they came from Roman shipwrecks, that's as far as it goes. There have definitely not been any actual Roman shipwrecks found anywhere near the Americas.

While there is loads of pre-Columbian contact with the Americas from Europe, Asia and Oceania there is nothing reliably dated before about the 10th century Norse from Europe. There is definite evidence of Oceanic contact via the sweet potato, but it's hard to reliably date and anything before the 10th century is conjecture.

There's a carbon date for a chicken in either Colombia or Peru (I forget) that seems pre-Columbian. Since Polynesians got sweet potatoes and had chickens this is possible.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stuart
Canada
flag msg tools
mb
whac3 wrote:
gamesterinns wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Um, ancient contacts are well established. They were largely lost to at least Western European during the Middle Ages.


So you would agree there is something to the idea that the Greeks visited China even before the Romans, then?

I was referring to diplomatic and economic contacts via the Silk Route which precedes the Greeks as well.


Ah, a misunderstanding. This is what one of the Chinese archaeologists said,

"We now have evidence that close contact existed between the First Emperor's China and the West before the formal opening of the Silk Road. This is far earlier than we formerly thought," said Senior Archaeologist Li Xiuzhen.

So they are referring to "close contact" with the Chinese, as opposed to distant contacts through the Silk Road - contact to the point that the Greeks were sending people to train Chinese craftsmen, as opposed to inconsequential diplomatic or mercantile contacts.

Speaking of which, it would be interesting to know exactly what Li means when he speaks of "the formal opening of the Silk Road," as I recall reading that such a defined land route from China to the West may well have been impractical for much of history, due to various factors. I am assuming he means post-Marco Polo. As someone mentioned above, for much of the time, the sea routes from China to the West would have been safer and much more practical for shipping large quantities of goods.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
mbmbmbmbmb
gamesterinns wrote:
…Speaking of which, it would be interesting to know exactly what Li means when he speaks of "the formal opening of the Silk Road," as I recall reading that such a defined land route from China to the West may well have been impractical for much of history, due to various factors. I am assuming he means post-Marco Polo. As someone mentioned above, for much of the time, the sea routes from China to the West would have been safer and much more practical for shipping large quantities of goods.


Speculation of course but I can only imagine he means before historians recognize it as formally existing.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stuart
Canada
flag msg tools
mb
Tall_Walt wrote:
The Polynesians, who I don't think ever matched the size of European or Chinese ships, navigated to Hawaii, which is in the middle of nothing: it's one thing to hop from island to island, but Tahiti is 2626 miles/4226 km (per Google) from Hawaii, and California is almost as far again; Polynesians influenced some native American tribe(s?)


Haha, that's a whole other part of the history books that may yet have to be re-written - that's what Thor Heyerdahl thought, anyway. At least the DNA evidence is coming in now, so the answer may become clearer. When I look at the ocean currents of the Pacific, it does make some sense to think the Polynesians came at the Pacific islands from the east, especially Hawaii, rather than the west. As you suggest, though, anybody who can navigate by the patterns of waves on the ocean surface could probably figure out how to get anywhere they want.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J
United States
Lexington
Kentucky
flag msg tools
admin
mbmbmbmbmb
gamesterinns wrote:
Haha, that's a whole other part of the history books that may yet have to be re-written - that's what Thor Heyerdahl thought, anyway. At least the DNA evidence is coming in now, so the answer may become clearer.

It's in and agrees with lots of other evidence that Heyerdahl was wrong.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Happy Holidays! ABCDEFGHIJK MNOPQRSTUVWXYZ
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
In memorium. Bob Hoover died 25 Oct 2016 at 94. In WWII he was shot down in a Spitfire and stole an FW-190 to escape. He spent decades at air shows flying Ole Yeller, shown
badge
Please contact me about board gaming in Orange County.
mbmbmbmbmb
DavidDearlove wrote:
Tall_Walt wrote:
I can't say I really have a detailed handle on all the different expeditions from all the different cultures, but....

I would be fascinated to hear of Roman Shipwrecks in South America as there are no such things.

Unless you're omniscient, you can't say that: you can only say none have been definitively discovered...so far. The pointed-base amphorae have definitely been discovered, but their exact provenance is not clear. Perhaps Moroccan. In any case, pointed-base amphorae are rather odd containers since they can't stand upright unaided; as far as I know, they haven't been independently invented but all come from Mediterranean culture.

This is confused by one of those damn Marxists:
http://www.nytimes.com/1985/06/25/science/underwater-explori...
Long story short: A claim was been made of a 2nd century Roman ship in 1985, but because of the large number Italian immigrants in Brazil, some demanded that they all be granted citizenship, and allegedly the Brazilian navy buried the wreck; Brazilian marine archeology stopped.

Marine archeology is notoriously difficult even with cooperation.

DavidDearlove wrote:
There's a carbon date for a chicken in either Colombia or Peru (I forget) that seems pre-Columbian. Since Polynesians got sweet potatoes and had chickens this is possible.

Apparently the chicken is genetically Polynesian. On the other side, an Egyptian mummy was found with nicotine and coca in her hair, and there's the similarity between South American and Egyptian step pyramids. Since we don't have evidence for American ship building technology of that age, presumable the contact came from Egypt or some allied culture/civilization.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_co...

Polynesians may have followed bird migration patterns. They definitely used clouds rising from islands to spot them from very far away. I suppose, thinking back on this year's weather, one might see a giant typhoon that started as a hurricane in the Gulf of California and think, "I wonder where that came from!" It wouldn't give you an exact heading, but the Americas are a pretty big target to hit.

It seems clear from the results that Polynesians were intrepid explorers. Traditionally, when they faced a lack of food on an island, the navigators' guild would organize expeditions to disperse. A chancy business, but perhaps one that explains their dispersal over an area that dwarfs land empires.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stuart
Canada
flag msg tools
mb
jmilum wrote:
gamesterinns wrote:
Haha, that's a whole other part of the history books that may yet have to be re-written - that's what Thor Heyerdahl thought, anyway. At least the DNA evidence is coming in now, so the answer may become clearer.

It's in and agrees with lots of other evidence that Heyerdahl was wrong.


There's a fair chance he was right about Easter Island, since South American DNA has been found there, and he proved it was possible to sail there from the east with the Kon-Tiki. I'm not sure about Hawaii, though - I realize requests for supporting evidence usually fall on deaf ears around here, but perhaps you will be more prepared to share what data you have found that convinces you he was wrong?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Happy Holidays! ABCDEFGHIJK MNOPQRSTUVWXYZ
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
In memorium. Bob Hoover died 25 Oct 2016 at 94. In WWII he was shot down in a Spitfire and stole an FW-190 to escape. He spent decades at air shows flying Ole Yeller, shown
badge
Please contact me about board gaming in Orange County.
mbmbmbmbmb
gamesterinns wrote:
There's a fair chance he was right about Easter Island, since South American DNA has been found there, and he proved it was possible to sail there from the east with the Kon-Tiki. I'm not sure about Hawaii, though - I realize requests for supporting evidence usually fall on deaf ears around here, but perhaps you will be more prepared to share what data you have found that convinces you he was wrong?

New discoveries show more contact between far-flung prehistoric humans than first thought: Evidence found of contact between Easter Islanders and South America
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James King
United States
North Central Louisiana / No Longer A Resident of the Shreveport/Bossier City Area / Currently I sponsor gaming groups in Monroe & Alexandria, LA.
Louisiana
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb


DavidDearlove wrote:
Tall_Walt wrote:
I can't say I really have a detailed handle on all the different expeditions from all the different cultures, but....

Following the coast is a pretty easy form of navigation. With a boat that can be beached, you can just land to avoid storms. This would apply to all the major ship-building heritages I'm aware of: Egyptian (papyrus hull), European (wooden shell hull), Chinese (wooden bulkheaded hull--junks), and Polynesian (pontoons and outriggers).

The Polynesians, who I don't think ever matched the size of European or Chinese ships, navigated to Hawaii, which is in the middle of nothing: it's one thing to hop from island to island, but Tahiti is 2626 miles/4226 km (per Google) from Hawaii, and California is almost as far again; Polynesians influenced some native American tribe(s?)

We've also found Roman(?) shipwrecks in South America.

So, pretty much, everyone could have been everywhere, long before anyone was writing things down durably. And the logs of trading ships were sometimes considered secret, so....

I would be fascinated to hear of Roman Shipwrecks in South America as there are no such things.

Would you settle for evidence suggesting Egyptian and Phoenician ships and/or expedition came to the New World?




1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Dearlove
United Kingdom
Isleworth
Middx
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
ShreveportLAGamer wrote:


DavidDearlove wrote:
Tall_Walt wrote:
I can't say I really have a detailed handle on all the different expeditions from all the different cultures, but....

Following the coast is a pretty easy form of navigation. With a boat that can be beached, you can just land to avoid storms. This would apply to all the major ship-building heritages I'm aware of: Egyptian (papyrus hull), European (wooden shell hull), Chinese (wooden bulkheaded hull--junks), and Polynesian (pontoons and outriggers).

The Polynesians, who I don't think ever matched the size of European or Chinese ships, navigated to Hawaii, which is in the middle of nothing: it's one thing to hop from island to island, but Tahiti is 2626 miles/4226 km (per Google) from Hawaii, and California is almost as far again; Polynesians influenced some native American tribe(s?)

We've also found Roman(?) shipwrecks in South America.

So, pretty much, everyone could have been everywhere, long before anyone was writing things down durably. And the logs of trading ships were sometimes considered secret, so....

I would be fascinated to hear of Roman Shipwrecks in South America as there are no such things.

Would you settle for evidence suggesting Egyptian and Phoenician ships and/or expedition came to the New World?





Yes but there isn't any credible. Carry on though. No spaceships however.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Dearlove
United Kingdom
Isleworth
Middx
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
gamesterinns wrote:
jmilum wrote:
gamesterinns wrote:
Haha, that's a whole other part of the history books that may yet have to be re-written - that's what Thor Heyerdahl thought, anyway. At least the DNA evidence is coming in now, so the answer may become clearer.

It's in and agrees with lots of other evidence that Heyerdahl was wrong.


There's a fair chance he was right about Easter Island, since South American DNA has been found there, and he proved it was possible to sail there from the east with the Kon-Tiki. I'm not sure about Hawaii, though - I realize requests for supporting evidence usually fall on deaf ears around here, but perhaps you will be more prepared to share what data you have found that convinces you he was wrong?

There is zero evidence for the kind of navigation skills you would need to reach Easter Island from the American mainland. Since the Polynesians had the skills and the technology it is far more likely that they made the journey the other way. After all is is rather easier to reach America from Easter Island because of the winds and currents and finding land is rather trivial if you go far enough. The return would be difficult but Polynesians made such voyages regularly.
Heyerdahl found one account of a coastal raft and decided that based on that it was credible that South Americans made long sea voyages.
The fact that he barely made is is not really evidence of the possibility of the journey.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adrian Hague
United Kingdom
Bristol
Bristol
flag msg tools
RAWKET LAWNCHA!!!
mbmbmbmbmb
damiangerous wrote:
There is definite evidence of Oceanic contact via the sweet potato, but it's hard to reliably date and anything before the 10th century is conjecture.

Wait, what? People crossed the Atlantic in a sweet potato? Was it hollowed out or something?

I could have sworn that I've read 'Do not use as a floatation device' written on packets of 'em...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Holt
England
Rayleigh
Essex
flag msg tools
This is not the cat you're looking for - some other cat maybe?
badge
tout passe, tout lasse, tout casse
mbmbmbmbmb
DavidDearlove wrote:

The fact that he barely made is is not really evidence of the possibility of the journey.

Actually it is evidence that such a journey was possible. But is not evidence that such happened or was likely.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stuart
Canada
flag msg tools
mb
Tall_Walt wrote:
gamesterinns wrote:
There's a fair chance he was right about Easter Island, since South American DNA has been found there, and he proved it was possible to sail there from the east with the Kon-Tiki. I'm not sure about Hawaii, though - I realize requests for supporting evidence usually fall on deaf ears around here, but perhaps you will be more prepared to share what data you have found that convinces you he was wrong?

New discoveries show more contact between far-flung prehistoric humans than first thought: Evidence found of contact between Easter Islanders and South America


Thanks for that, although I noticed the article said something else that might soon be being revised in the history books,

"While it is accepted that the Americas were first colonised by people crossing from Asia on a land bridge to Alaska..."

It turns out this may have never happened at all and should probably no longer be as easily accepted.* So, if the boat route was more plausible(safely skirting the coasts of Asia to those of the Americas, as someone else suggested earlier) that kind of adds more credibility to the idea the ancestors of the Polynesians came from the east, at least to certain parts of the Pacific. Again, Hawaii looks to me like it's a lot more easily approached from the western coast of North America than from anywhere else, but I admit I'm not a sailor, so it's just my opinion.



* Apparently this is a bigger deal to America's indigenous peoples than I previously realized

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/06/05/1304788/-Bering-Str...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.