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Subject: BSG V141 - Boxey Goes to Kobol rss

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Zach T
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BSG V141 - Boxey Goes to Kobol
5-Player All Cylon Leader, Pegasus + Daybreak Game to Kobol

This is a rematch of BSG V139 - Admiral Boxey and BSG V140 - President Boxey.

The basic premise is that all five players will be Cylon Leaders, and extra Motives have been added to allow this to be possible. The extra motives skew Human, and infiltrating Cylon Leaders have been buffed, in order to give the Humans a fighting chance.

New Motives

Infiltrate the Colonials: Reveal this card if the game is over and you are infiltrating and not in the Brig.
Salvage Their Equipment: Reveal this card if the game is over and three or fewer Galactica locations are damaged.
Toy With Their Hopes: Reveal this motive if the game is over and any resource had an increase while you held this Motive.

Cylon Democracy Reveal this card if you are the President and were at some point previously not the President OR you have always been President, at least one resource is in the red, and you have never played a Quorum card.
Lay Down Your Burdens: Reveal this card if every player has started at least 2 turns while Galactica has been at its current Destination.
Colonials Take Warning: Reveal this card if 10 or more Raiders are in space areas.
Mutual Annihilation: Reveal this card if the game is over and you have played a Super Crisis card.
One True Path: Reveal this card if the game is over and there are at least 3 destroyed Raptors or there are 2 destroyed Raptors and no intact Assault Raptors.

At the beginning of the game, one random Cylon and one random Human motive are set aside, facedown, leaving a deck of 11 Human and 9 Cylon motives, all of which will eventually be dealt out to the players.

All effects involving the inspection of Loyalties now pertain to the inspection of Motives, instead. Secrecy rules prohibit you from talking about specific card text on Motives you inspect, though you may claim to have seen a Human or Cylon motive.

Infiltration

When players infiltrate using the Human Fleet, they draw a "You Are Infiltrating" card, as usual. As long as they have a "You are Infiltrating" card, they operate according to usual Daybreak rules for infiltrating Cylon Leaders.

At the beginning of any turn (before you draw skill cards) that you start in a Human Location (other than the Brig), discard the "You Are Infiltrating" card. You are now "Completely Infiltrated." Any players that start the game on a Human Location start the game "Completely Infiltrated." Such players are no longer bound by the restrictions on the "You Are Infiltrating" card, and may hold Titles and contribute as many cards as they like to skill checks.

"Completely Infiltrated" players have a five-card skill draw, given as follows:

Caprica Six: 2 Leadership, 2 Engineering/Treachery, 1 Leadership/Engineering/Piloting
Cavil: 2 Tactics, 2 Engineering/Treachery, 1 Leadership/Tactics/Engineering
Leoben Conoy: 2 Politics, 2 Engineering/Treachery, 1 Politics/Engineering/Piloting
Aaron Doral: 2 Politics, 2 Tactics, 1 Treachery.
Simon O'Neill: 2 Engineering, 2 Tactics/Treachery, 1 Leadership/Tactics/Engineering
Sharon "Athena" Agathon: 2 Piloting, 2 Leadership/Engineering, 1 Piloting/Leadership/Engineering
D'Anna Biers: 2 Politics/Leadership, 2 Engineering/Treachery, 1 Politics/Leadership/Engineering.

"Completely Infiltrated" characters may still end their Infiltration as an Action, moving themselves to the Resurrection Ship and ending their turn. As usual, they relinquish all titles (including "Vice President" and the like) and discard all Mutinies when doing so. If they deinfiltrate from the Brig, they must discard down to 3 skill cards. If they deinfiltrate from outside the Brig (including by means of D'Anna's "Visions"), they may elect to discard 5 skill cards and draw a Super Crisis. If Doral elects to use his "Meticulous" ability while de-infiltrating, he first decides on his new location, then he may discard 5 skill cards to draw a Super Crisis, then he may take another Action.

Character Changes

Aaron Doral's Industrious: While infiltrated, draw an additional skill card at the beginning of your turn. Disregard this ability while you are in Sickbay.
Simon O'Neill's Calculating: If you are a Cylon, you may contribute 2 skill cards to skill checks. If you have a "You are Infiltrating" card and are not in the Brig, you may contribute 3 skill cards to skill checks. If you are "Completely Infiltrated," once all Skill Cards are revealed from a skill check into which you have played at least 2 cards, you may choose not to resolve all instances of any one Skill Check Ability.
Cavil's Lies and Secrets: Whenever a player (besides yourself) de-infiltrates for any reason, discard down to three skill cards (if you have four or more skill cards) or discard one random skill card (if you have three or fewer); For Love may not be used to mitigate this.
Cavil's Aggressive Tactics: If Cavil uses his OPG, he may not play an Executive Order that turn.
Leoben's Clouded: If three or more other players are on Cylon Locations, this restriction is lifted for the Human Fleet location.
Athena's For Love: This ability may not be used on Cylon players.

Most Cylon Leaders now have a second option for their starting location:

Aaron Doral
: Command (Completly Infiltrated)
Simon O'Neill: Research Lab (Completly Infiltrated)
D'Anna Biers: Press Room (Completly Infiltrated)
Caprica Six: Pegasus CIC (Completly Infiltrated)
Cavil: Armory (Completly Infiltrated)
Leoben Conoy: Resurrection Ship

Athena must still start on the Hangar Deck. She begins the game Completely Infiltrated.

If Leoben chooses to start on the Resurrection Ship, he still draws 2 skill cards at the start of the game (unless he is the first player).

Players may look at their Motives before deciding their starting location, though they must decide before drawing their initial skill cards.

Titles

"Completely Infiltrated" Cylon Leaders may hold titles. The appropriate succession lists:

President:
Leoben Conoy*
Aaron Doral
D'Anna Biers
Caprica Six
Cavil
Simon O'Neill
Sharon "Athena" Agathon

Admiral:
Caprica Six
D'Anna Biers
Sharon "Athena" Agathon
Cavil
Simon O'Neill
Aaron Doral
Leoben Conoy

*Note that Leoben cannot start as an infiltrator, so he will never be President at the start of the game.

If only one player is on a Human location, the Quorum card "Resignation" has no effect if played.

The Quorum card "Eulogy" has been removed from the game.

In the event no players are "Completely Infiltrated", all the titles will pass to Boxey. In the event of an Admiral or President Chooses crisis, Boxey always picks the top option (if legal). If there are sub-options (e.g. Crash Landing fail effect), he will pick the first one. If the fleet jumps, Boxey picks the top destination. Boxey will relinquish his titles to the first player to become "Completely Infiltrated."

Boxey does not get a turn; he does have a hand (known only to me) in which he keeps his Quorums, as well as any skill cards or Mutinies he receives. If he has to discard cards, he discards the highest-valued cards first; in the event of ties, he chooses to discard randomly. Thus, he still receives a Mutiny if he discards a zero-strength Treachery in this fashion.

Boxey is not considered a player for the purposes of card and board text; if you are ever directed to choose a "player" for any reason, Boxey is not a valid choice, and he is immune to effects targeting "each player" or "every player."

Secret Loss Condition: If Boxey is sent to the Brig, the Humans immediately lose.


PBF

The usual PBF spiel applies; if you haven't seen it before, see e.g. the first page of BSG 552 - The Circle.

Default standing COs are posted here; these may of course be modified by CO at any time.

Changes Since V140:
- For first turn of infiltration from Human Fleet, Infiltration follows normal Daybreak rules.
- At start of first infiltrated turn, player becomes "Completely Infiltrated" and may hold titles, contribute any number of cards to skill checks.
- "Completely Infiltrated" players now have prescribed 5-card skill draws.
- Changed optional starting locations of some models.
- Players may now discard 5 cards to draw a Super Crisis when deinfiltrating from outside of the Brig.
- Minor change to Admiral succession.
- Minor Boxey changes.
- Clarified Doral's "Industrious."
- Changed Simon's "Calculating."
- Changed new Motives.
- Added Resurrection Ship starting option for Leoben.

Changes Since the Start of Character Selection:
- Clarified D'Anna's "Visions."
- Clarified Doral's "Meticulous."
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Zach T
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Players:
Vorpalgens
anatinus
Arkest
Arcadious
THN Wraith

Default COs and Interrupt Abilities

Pretty much all of these can be changed by CO, if desired.

Athena's For Love: I will assume you will use this whenever applicable, unless the affected player requests otherwise or you are at your hand limit. Otherwise, I will pause. Other players of course, cannot assume this; if you need to discard at any point (and For Love has not already been used during the turn), you should CO me what you would discard if she does not Love you. If the discard is from moving between ships, you are free to leave a public CO for the action after the move.
Caprica's Human Delusion: I will assume you are passing on this unless you CO me otherwise, or if the result on the skill check could end the game.
Doral's Meticulous: If you don't say that you are using this when you de-infiltrate, I am assuming you are passing on it.

Chief of Staff: Handled concurrently with other skill check interrupts, but I will assume you pass on it unless you play it yourself or CO me otherwise.

Generally speaking, I will pass automatically on any interrupts you don't have. However, to preserve secrecy, I may at times elect not to do so, so it's still good practice to manually pass and not rely on me to do so. In particular, I will never just skip an entire interrupts phase because nobody has any interrupts.

Skill Check Interrupts: If someone plays an interrupt, I will assume everyone else will be passing on the same interrupt unless they have a lower-valued one or are in the Brig. If you play an interrupt, I will assume you are passing on any further interrupts unless you state or CO me otherwise. Additionally:
* Scientific Research will be passed automatically if Engineering is positive (unless playing it would let you benefit from Support the People).
* At Any Cost will be passed automatically for Airlock skill checks.
* Support the People will be passed automatically unless you or two Humans would benefit. After a Support the People is played, public COs for what color(s) you would draw are allowed (i.e. order doesn't matter, and you can still put in your request even if the current player could choose a different Reckless interrupt).
* A Second Chance will be passed automatically if the current player has no way of benefiting from it.

A player may publicly declare his intention to TANK a skill check; this means they are passing on interrupts and contributions to the skill check, and other players are free to assume that they are doing so. The Tank is cancelled if any other player plays into the skill check. You may publicly declare Tank and still CO me that you are playing cards in.

Declare Emergency and Change of Plans: I will pass on these by default; you must put in a CO during the skill check to use these.

Strategic Planning: Unless you CO me otherwise, I will pass automatically on any:
* Launch Scout rolls (unless there is only 1 Raptor remaining)
* attacks made by Vipers
* rolls that would help the Cylons (e.g. Basestar shots)
If someone plays a Strategic Planning, I will pass on all others (regardless of value), unless you CO me otherwise.

Calculations: I will automatically pass on this unless you CO me otherwise (e.g. while people are playing/passing on Strategic Planning). Note that I will not automatically pass you on Strategic Planning if you don't have one if you have a Calculations in hand (unless you have never had a chance to draw Tactics). However, as die rolls may happen without warning (e.g. if the player initiating the roll plays a Strategic Planning directly, or for scout rolls or attacks on Heavy Raiders), you may want to put in a CO for when you'd like to pause to consider using it.

Launch Scout: As stated above, SPs will be passed automatically on this die roll as long as there are 2 or more Raptors remaining. When this is the case, leaving a public CO for whether you're checking Crisis or Destination before the die roll is made is fine.

Major Victory: You need to put in a CO for this one, but that shouldn't be a problem as you're the one destroying the Basestar or Centurion.

Evasive Maneuvers: Will be passed automatically unless
* the viper is destroyed,
* the viper is manned,
* the viper is the last ship protecting a civilian, or
* there are 2 or fewer undamaged vipers left.
Pilots may want to leave me a more detailed CO for when they would and would not use their Evasives.

Run Interference will be passed by default; pilots should put in a CO for this one.

If the order of raider activation cannot matter for the raider AI, I will activate the sectors in order, 1 through 6.

It is highly recommended that you put in a CO for whether you want to damage Pegasus or Galactica on your turn; I can make no default assumptions as any of you could have one of the damage motives.

Revealing Motives: I won't pause for these, so COs are encouraged. This is especially true for the ones that are the most time-sensitive, like A Justified Response.
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THN Wraith
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I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
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Checking in.

Just one question though. I assume that when the Suspicious Newcomers cards are gone we're back up to the option of putting 3 cards into the skill check (or 4 for Simon)?
 
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Zach T
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Past Motives Discussion:

Generally, there are three principles Motives have to follow.

1) Cylon Motives should force you to help (or at least not harm) the Humans in some way; Human Motives require you to hurt the Humans in some way.

2) No motive should ever be entirely impossible, nor should any two motives be mutually exclusive.

3) You should not be able to get a motive at Sleeper and have it automatically be passed regardless of what happens in the remainder of the game (even if all you need to do is reveal it, as with No Unnecessary Force / End the Chase).

Motives that we've used in the past:

Colonials Take Warning (139): Reveal this card if the fleet marker is on a red space of the Jump Preparation track and there are at least 2 Basestars, 10 Raiders, and 1 Heavy Raider on the board.
Colonials Take Warning (140): Reveal this card if all Basestars are on the game board.

Meant as a counterpart to A Justified Response; the first one is basically impossible without the CFB. The second one isn't impossible, but can still be quite difficult if you don't get lucky with CACs. However, it's largely trivial if you are Cavil (as happened in 140) or get Cavil to help you out.

I still like the idea of a fleet-based Motive, but it's quite difficult to tune properly, especially in the presence of Cavil.

Join the Colonials (139) / Infiltrate the Colonials (140): Reveal this card if the game is over and you are infiltrating and not in the Brig.

The 139 version of this violated the first principle; the 140 version works quite nicely, as you at least have to feign cooperation with the Humans to complete it.

Guide them to Destiny (139): Reveal this card if the game is over and Population and Morale are within three of each other.

A weakening of the Agenda of the same name; not the worst motive, though it puts additional pressure on both resources.

Mutual Annihilation (139): Reveal this card if the game is over and you have played a Super Crisis card.

This takes way too much work for anyone who isn't D'Anna, though I do really like the idea of a Motive that makes Humans work the Cylon locations. This could be revived if Super Crises were easier to get for CLs (a house rule that let a CL deinfiltrating from outside the Brig draw a Super, or one that let a CL trade their Miracle Token for a Super without using an action?).

Expose Security Risks (139): Reveal this card if at least one of the following is true: (1) a Centurion is on at least the middle space of the Centurion track, (2) two or more Centurions are on board Galactica, OR (3) one or more Centurions are on board Galactica while the Armory is damaged.
Expose Security Risks (140): Reveal this card if there is a Centurion on Galactica.

First version was tough, even with the CFB. Second version, for non-CFB, was still quite difficult if you got it after sleeper (though Simon could help). I still like the idea of a Centurion motive, but it's tough to balance with CACs.

Harbinger of Death (140): Reveal this at the end of the game if a Mission has been failed OR the Rebel Basestar is in play OR all resources are in the red.

Doesn't work outside of Earth games, and violates Principle 3.

Cylon Democracy (140): Reveal this card if you are the President and were at some point previously not the President OR you have always been President, at least one resource is in the red, and you have never played a Quorum card.

Doral got this at the start of the game in 140, so we mainly explored the second branch. First branch is interesting, though it may be a bit too obvious what you're doing when you give the President a Mutiny.

Purge Their Corruption (140): Reveal this card if the game is over and there was a turn in which both Population and Morale had a decrease.

This one was just way too stress-inducing. I figured it would be done by an early jump + a failed Morale crisis, but in practice it was "hope the Morale ship is destroyed" or "hope you get one of the crises that hits both." The lack of Iron Wills in non-Exodus games also makes it more difficult. It also violated Principle 3.

Toy With Their Hopes (139): Reveal this card if during the current turn, a resource dial increased while it was your turn or a Preventative Policy or Calculations you played prevented a direct resource loss.
Toy with Their Hopes (140): Reveal this card at the end of the game if at any point(s) during the game Population increased, Morale increased, or Fuel and Food both increased.

The 139 version was a bit finicky, and required luck with the crises on your turn or with Calculations. The 140 version (whose strange requirements were to prevent a Cylon Admiral from picking a bad 1-distance destination to help him out with his Cylon Motive) was actually even more stressful.

Salvage Their Equipment (139/140): Reveal this card if the game is over and three or fewer Galactica locations are damaged.

Counterpart to End The Chase. I think this one works well.

Show Their True Nature (139): Reveal this card if you are on the Resurrection Ship due to your Execution, if you are in the Brig due to another player's choice or action, or if the game is over and you are in the Brig.

A subversion of Principle 1, as this would make the Humans hurt themselves by keeping you out of the Brig while you do damage. An interesting concept, but is too gamey in practice.
 
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Zach T
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THN Wraith wrote:
Checking in.

Just one question though. I assume that when the Suspicious Newcomers cards are gone we're back up to the option of putting 3 cards into the skill check (or 4 for Simon)?


Ah, sorry, didn't specify clearly. I was envisioning that CLs could now play as many skill cards as they like once they get rid of their Suspicious Newcomer card.

The three-card limit wasn't really necessary, and was more annoying than anything (especially on Missions, though we don't have to worry about them here). Everyone (except Cavil & Six) spent the game near their hand limit.

The Suspicious Newcomer token is basically meant to allow people to brig or execute a clearly hostile CL if they've just come aboard to cause mischief.

Essentially, the "Suspicious Newcomer" acts like the usual "Infiltrator" card in all respects.

This does leave Simon's OPT in a rather odd place; I've made it so that he can now play two cards face up in any skill check while infiltrating and not a "Suspicious Newcomer," but if anyone has any better suggestions feel free to make them.
 
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THN Wraith
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I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
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kingerc wrote:

THN Wraith wrote:
Checking in.

Just one question though. I assume that when the Suspicious Newcomers cards are gone we're back up to the option of putting 3 cards into the skill check (or 4 for Simon)?


Ah, sorry, didn't specify clearly. I was envisioning that CLs could now play as many skill cards as they like once they get rid of their Suspicious Newcomer card.

The three-card limit wasn't really necessary, and was more annoying than anything (especially on Missions, though we don't have to worry about them here). Everyone (except Cavil & Six) spent the game near their hand limit.

The Suspicious Newcomer token is basically meant to allow people to brig or execute a clearly hostile CL if they've just come aboard to cause mischief.

Essentially, the "Suspicious Newcomer" acts like the usual "Infiltrator" card in all respects.

This does leave Simon's OPT in a rather odd place; I've made it so that he can now play two cards face up in any skill check while infiltrating and not a "Suspicious Newcomer," but if anyone has any better suggestions feel free to make them.


Okay, that makes sense but it does pretty much neuter Simon's OPT after his first turn on the human locations. He'd be fine on the Cylon locations but given that everyone other than Six spent the whole of last game on the Human locations (and Six didn't exactly choose to go to the Cylon spaces) I don't think that's enough of a benefit for him. Maybe we could change his OPT to account for this. I was thinking that his OPT is designed to influence skill checks so maybe something like Willian Adama's or Cally's OPT. Other options could be Romo's, Ellen's or Cottle's OPT's as they can indirectly influence skill checks (or possibly even Baltar's but that would probably end up too much like Doral's OPT).
 
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Zach T
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THN Wraith wrote:
kingerc wrote:

THN Wraith wrote:
Checking in.

Just one question though. I assume that when the Suspicious Newcomers cards are gone we're back up to the option of putting 3 cards into the skill check (or 4 for Simon)?


Ah, sorry, didn't specify clearly. I was envisioning that CLs could now play as many skill cards as they like once they get rid of their Suspicious Newcomer card.

The three-card limit wasn't really necessary, and was more annoying than anything (especially on Missions, though we don't have to worry about them here). Everyone (except Cavil & Six) spent the game near their hand limit.

The Suspicious Newcomer token is basically meant to allow people to brig or execute a clearly hostile CL if they've just come aboard to cause mischief.

Essentially, the "Suspicious Newcomer" acts like the usual "Infiltrator" card in all respects.

This does leave Simon's OPT in a rather odd place; I've made it so that he can now play two cards face up in any skill check while infiltrating and not a "Suspicious Newcomer," but if anyone has any better suggestions feel free to make them.


Okay, that makes sense but it does pretty much neuter Simon's OPT after his first turn on the human locations. He'd be fine on the Cylon locations but given that everyone other than Six spent the whole of last game on the Human locations (and Six didn't exactly choose to go to the Cylon spaces) I don't think that's enough of a benefit for him. Maybe we could change his OPT to account for this. I was thinking that his OPT is designed to influence skill checks so maybe something like Willian Adama's or Cally's OPT. Other options could be Romo's, Ellen's or Cottle's OPT's as they can indirectly influence skill checks (or possibly even Baltar's but that would probably end up too much like Doral's OPT).


I'd had the same idea regarding just stealing Cally's OPT, and may just go with that one.
 
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Proposals for Cylon Motives

Infiltrate the Colonials: Reveal this card if the game is over and you are infiltrating and not in the Brig.
Salvage Their Equipment: Reveal this card if the game is over and three or fewer Galactica locations are damaged.

These worked well, and let's keep them.

Possibilities for the third one:

1) Another tweak to the resource-increase motive. These were all generally too finicky, but if someone has a good idea for how to fix it, I'd entertain it.
2) Give Them Direction: "Reveal if the game is over and Fuel is 2 or Higher."
- There are obvious reasons for not having a Human Fuel motive, but why not a Cylon Fuel motive?
3) Dead Man's Switch: "Reveal this card if the game is over and the Humans have an intact Assault Raptor."
- Could be quite tough if you don't have much access to Engineering. A previous version of this motive also let "the Admiral has no Nuke Tokens" satisfy it, but that could violate Principle 3 (as there is no way to acquire Nukes without Exodus).

Proposals for Human Motives

1) Expose Security Risks: "Reveal this card if there is a Centurion on board Galactica."
- As last game showed, this one may just be too hard (though that was mainly because the CLs decided to blow up all the Centurions a turn before sleeper). Perhaps add an alternate condition: 2 Heavy Raiders in space areas? 1 Heavy Raider in Sector 5 or 6?.
2) Cylon Democracy: "Reveal this card if you are the President and were at some point previously not the President OR you have always been President, at least one resource is in the red, and you have never played a Quorum card."
- Unchanged from last game. Bit clunky, but I think it works.
3) Purge Their Corruption: some form of 'give the Humans a really bad turn.'
- Not sure I really liked this concept to begin with, and it's always been difficult to write a good version of this one.
4) Take It Slow: "Reveal if, during the current turn, Jump Preparation decreased."
- I'm not enthused about one-turn reveal windows for cards, plus this is dependent on particular crises / Feed the People. Could be somehow combined with 3).
5) Hard Landings: "Reveal this card if 3 or more Raptors are destroyed."
- Is a Raptor motive interesting?
6) Colonials Take Warning: "Reveal this card if 10 or more Raiders are in space areas."
- Another "big fleet" one, adapted from the Personal Goal "Stand and Fight".
7) Mutual Annihilation: "Reveal this card if the game is over and you have played a Super Crisis card."
- If we go with this one again, I'd add some sort of house rule to let CLs draw Super Crises easier; perhaps "When you de-infiltrate, you may discard 5 skill cards to draw a Super Crisis card." I really like the idea of a Motive that makes people use the Cylon Locations, and this is the most straightforward way to do one that doesn't conflict with Infiltrate the Colonials.
8-10): Learn to Appreciate / Urge Their Leaders / Keep Them Cooperative. If we feel we have to generally make life easier on the Humans, we could just include some easier copies of the Resource motives (Food 5 or less, Morale 6 or less, & Population 7 or less)?

Let me know what you guys think.
 
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Carlo Gozzi
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Give them direction...
Not sure i like the idea, think if we use this on a earth destination
Near impossible to achieve

I do like Cylon democracy
Can be interesting to juggle with it
Could have put me in more trouble but can also lead to good interaction with others during the game... hard true but the reward of having it is great

Join the colonials might be too easy...
Infiltrate is another matter as eventually things will/should heat up for pro cylons...
I'd keep Infiltrate but would ditch Join

Strange enough i see dead man switch as a human one...
Would force human to play it more safe than usual with the AR and with Dogfight in play can lead to interesting dynamics

Overall interesting motives to try out
 
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THN Wraith
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I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
mbmbmbmbmb
kingerc wrote:


Proposals for Cylon Motives

Infiltrate the Colonials: Reveal this card if the game is over and you are infiltrating and not in the Brig.
Salvage Their Equipment: Reveal this card if the game is over and three or fewer Galactica locations are damaged.

These worked well, and let's keep them.

Possibilities for the third one:

1) Another tweak to the resource-increase motive. These were all generally too finicky, but if someone has a good idea for how to fix it, I'd entertain it.
2) Give Them Direction: "Reveal if the game is over and Fuel is 2 or Higher."
- There are obvious reasons for not having a Human Fuel motive, but why not a Cylon Fuel motive?
3) Dead Man's Switch: "Reveal this card if the game is over and the Humans have an intact Assault Raptor."
- Could be quite tough if you don't have much access to Engineering. A previous version of this motive also let "the Admiral has no Nuke Tokens" satisfy it, but that could violate Principle 3 (as there is no way to acquire Nukes without Exodus).




I agree with keeping Infiltrate and Salvage. For the others:
1)If we go for a resource increase motive I'd maybe just make it completable if a single resource increases. I had this one last game and while it was stressful it was mainly because I ended up completing it with the section that required both Food and Fuel to increase. If I had done it with either of the single resource increase options it would have been fine. Options for raising resources can be rare but enough to make this doable. To keep this from contravening the third principle you mentioned maybe have it be "A resource was raised after obtaining this motive". That way pre-sleeper increases don't auto-complete it if it comes out at sleeper. Now I've got the idea of differences in pre and post sleeper motives you could have it as 2 resource rises if received at the start of the game or 1 resource if received at sleeper. Keeps the difficulty reasonably high but not overwhelming no matter when you get it.
2) A fuel motive could work but unless you're the Admiral it could be very difficult to influence - particularly as Exodus isn't included in this setup so we don't have the Search For Fuel skill card.
3) I'm fairly ambivalent about the Assault Raptor idea. Yes it can work but there is also the chance that the person holding it could convince the others to launch the vipers before the AR in order to keep it safe. As the AR is a better fighter than the Vipers (stay in space / harder to hit) this could be slightly more helpful to the Cylon side so potentially contravenes principle 1.

My preferences would be my suggestion for option 1 followed by option 2.


kingerc wrote:


Proposals for Human Motives

1) Expose Security Risks: "Reveal this card if there is a Centurion on board Galactica."
- As last game showed, this one may just be too hard (though that was mainly because the CLs decided to blow up all the Centurions a turn before sleeper). Perhaps add an alternate condition: 2 Heavy Raiders in space areas? 1 Heavy Raider in Sector 5 or 6?.
2) Cylon Democracy: "Reveal this card if you are the President and were at some point previously not the President OR you have always been President, at least one resource is in the red, and you have never played a Quorum card."
- Unchanged from last game. Bit clunky, but I think it works.
3) Purge Their Corruption: some form of 'give the Humans a really bad turn.'
- Not sure I really liked this concept to begin with, and it's always been difficult to write a good version of this one.
4) Take It Slow: "Reveal if, during the current turn, Jump Preparation decreased."
- I'm not enthused about one-turn reveal windows for cards, plus this is dependent on particular crises / Feed the People. Could be somehow combined with 3).
5) Hard Landings: "Reveal this card if 3 or more Raptors are destroyed."
- Is a Raptor motive interesting?
6) Colonials Take Warning: "Reveal this card if 10 or more Raiders are in space areas."
- Another "big fleet" one, adapted from the Personal Goal.
7) Mutual Annihilation: "Reveal this card if the game is over and you have played a Super Crisis card."
- If we go with this one again, I'd add some sort of house rule to let CLs draw Super Crises easier; perhaps "When you de-infiltrate, you may discard 5 skill cards to draw a Super Crisis card." I really like the idea of a Motive that makes people use the Cylon Locations, and this is the most straightforward way to do one that doesn't conflict with Infiltrate the Colonials.
8-10): Learn to Appreciate / Urge Their Leaders / Keep Them Cooperative. If we feel we have to generally make life easier on the Humans, we could just include some easier copies of the Resource motives (Food 5 or less, Morale 6 or less, & Population 7 or less)?

Let me know what you guys think.



Human Motives
1) I feel this one is tough to call. It's one that could be extremely easy if the crisis cards fall a certain way but could also be near impossible if they fall a different way. The Cylon variant of this (No Unnecessary Force) is fine because it can be directly influenced if only by infiltrating and taking armory shots yourself but this human variant doesn't have that. The only way I can see it being influenced is through scouting. The additional conditions could help as it gives more chances to complete it so I think if we include that I'd prefer to have it with both of the possibilities you suggested. The heavy in Sector 5 or 6 is only one step before the complete condition from the last game and the 2 Heavies on the board is difficult as once one is on the board there's no easy way of getting another one launched so adding either of these conditions individually may not be enough to make much difference while adding both should be fine.
2) I think Cylon Democracy was fine. Like you said it could be quite obvious that you're going for it if you give the President a mutiny but there's other motives that can be obvious from your actions so I don't think that's a problem.
3) I don't know how to fix Purge Their Corruption but I really didn't like having it as one of my motives. As I said in the post game breakdown of V140 I'd basically written this off until Standoff With Pegasus came out and I don't think it's reasonable to expect that to be relied on next time. Hoping for one particular crisis out of 120 is not an option, particularly as it could quite easily be buried with Caprica / Scouting etc. Of all the listed options this is the one that I think most needs to be changed or dropped but like I said I don't know how to change it.
4) I quite like this one. I get your point about the one turn window but I don't think that would be a problem. I think a bigger problem for this one is the same as I said for Expose Security Risks in that it will be very difficult to influence. I'm willing to have it in the game though as I think it could be interesting.
5) I think the Raptor motive would be good. It has the same minor issue as the Assault Raptor one in that it could help the side it's meant to hinder (humans) by encouraging more scouting but I think this is only a minor problem for the AR motive and even less of an issue here as the scouting could be good or bad for the humans (leaving bad crisis/destinations or burying good ones).
6)I think this is a better version than the last game but to get 10 raiders you'd still need at least one Basestar on the board or 5 separate crisis with Dradis Contacts in (or a combination of both) so it also falls foul of the same difficulty in influencing it as some of the others. I think this may be a good balance for it but I can't tell for sure and I think the only way to be sure is to try it.
7) I think this will really work well with your proposed house rule. I'd say this one should be a definite.
8-10) I think these three are fine as they are. There was some need to make things easier for the humans but isn't that why we're going with Kobol as the destination instead of Earth? Changing them to Morale 6 or Population 7 could be completed by a single crisis (e.g. Rebuild Trust) for Morale or a single -3 jump for Population. They would be far too easy like that. The Food one might not be too bad at 5 but I'd be fine with keeping it at 4.

My choices would be to keep all the official Daybreak ones unchanged and add in 2, 4, 5, 6 and 7.
 
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Zach T
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For the resource-increase motive:

My main worry with this one was that a Cylon Admiral could complete it by picking Icy Moon (yes, I am helping the Humans by picking the worst destination in the game!). But it's not too terrible overall, and there are many similar crises (e.g. Rescue Caprica Survivors). I may go with your suggestion here.

For the jump prep decrease motive:

Without Exodus in play (which has the Basestar Bridge, the Jump Prep Reveal, the Adama Ally, and several Jump Prep decrease crises), there are only a few ways to decrease Jump Prep:
1) The crises "Jump Computer Failure," "Network Computers", and "Raiding Party."
2) The Super Crisis "Massive Assault"
3) The Mutiny Card "Feed The People"

That doesn't seem to be quite enough to base a Motive off of.

I do like the idea of a "go slow" motive (to contrast with the Cylon 7 Distance motive), though. Perhaps one of:

A) Have a stretch of 5(?) turns in which the jump prep does not (net) increase.
B) Spend 12(?) turns at the same Destination.

Either could dovetail nicely with the Raptor or the Super Crisis motive.

Other Resource Motives

8-10 were meant to be in addition to, not in lieu of, the existing Daybreak motives. That said, it seems we have enough ideas where we don't have to resort to this.

Simon's OPT:

How about this one (inspired by Cally's), a sort of mini-Restore Order:

"On your turn, once all Skill Cards played into a skill check have been revealed, you may choose not to resolve all instances of any one Skill Check Ability."

(Note that this would not apply to the Treachery revealed if a check is Reckless; it would still apply to any card you play in as a result of a Force Their Hand.)

In practice, it's Personal Vices insurance, but so is Cally's.
 
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Ian Madsen
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Quote:
A) Have a stretch of 5(?) turns in which the jump prep does not (net) increase.
B) Spend 12(?) turns at the same Destination.


these both seem a bit tough. Otherwise they seem like good thoughts.
 
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kingerc wrote:


For the jump prep decrease motive:

Without Exodus in play (which has the Basestar Bridge, the Jump Prep Reveal, the Adama Ally, and several Jump Prep decrease crises), there are only a few ways to decrease Jump Prep:
1) The crises "Jump Computer Failure," "Network Computers", and "Raiding Party."
2) The Super Crisis "Massive Assault"
3) The Mutiny Card "Feed The People"

That doesn't seem to be quite enough to base a Motive off of.

I do like the idea of a "go slow" motive (to contrast with the Cylon 7 Distance motive), though. Perhaps one of:

A) Have a stretch of 5(?) turns in which the jump prep does not (net) increase.
B) Spend 12(?) turns at the same Destination.

Either could dovetail nicely with the Raptor or the Super Crisis motive.


Like you I like the idea of a "go slow" motive but I agree with anatinus that they seem quite difficult. The no net increase would be pure luck and even aggressive scouting or use of Caprica couldn't guarantee it passing. The spend X turns at the same destination is better but I think 12 might be too much, given that it is technically possible to spend only 3 turns at each destination if every crisis has a jump icon and the jumps were at -3. I think if you wanted to go for that one I probably wouldn't want to see it lasting more than 8 turns. With 8 turns you're still looking at 3-5 crisis without jump preps in a single jump cycle. Another option could be to just use the 1-distance jump requirement from the "Use Caution" personal goal but that risks both being autocompleted and the Cylon admiral problem you were worried about for the resource one.



kingerc wrote:

Other Resource Motives

8-10 were meant to be in addition to, not in lieu of, the existing Daybreak motives. That said, it seems we have enough ideas where we don't have to resort to this.


Okay, I thought these were instead of the Daybreak motives. The problem with including these as well as the Daybreak ones would be that if the same person got both of the Motives for the same resource then it's 2 passes for the price of one. Even if they went to different people you'd still have 2 people focusing on each of those resources which could skew things in their favour. I see the resource motives as currently being evenly balanced. The Cylon ones keep resources up while the Human ones reduce them so in terms of being genuinely interested in specific resources (other than as win conditions) is 1 vs 1. If you added in another motive for a particular resource it would then be 2 vs 1 and correspondingly easier for the 2 and harder for the 1.

kingerc wrote:

Simon's OPT:

How about this one (inspired by Cally's), a sort of mini-Restore Order:

"On your turn, once all Skill Cards played into a skill check have been revealed, you may choose not to resolve all instances of any one Skill Check Ability."

(Note that this would not apply to the Treachery revealed if a check is Reckless; it would still apply to any card you play in as a result of a Force Their Hand.)

In practice, it's Personal Vices insurance, but so is Cally's.


I like this. I think it works well. The only thing I can think of is that Simon's normal OPT can affect every skill check he plays into rather than just the one on his turn. Cally's only affects her turn but it can make more of an impact by changing a pass into a fail or vice versa so affecting resources etc. as well as protecting against skill check abilities. Maybe if it was any skill check he plays into. That way he can influence things on checks he's interested in (which fits with his original OPT) but not on ones he doesn't. He would also have to weigh up whether saving his cards for other checks is more important than stopping a skill check ability. He may even want to play in negatively to a check he wants to pass (if he doesn't have positive cards) or vice versa in order to protect from a particular effect.
 
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Zach T
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I've made a few rules changes to the original post, namely:

- Cleaned up the language regarding "Suspicious Newcomer." Basically, now when you infiltrate from the Human Fleet (not at the beginning of the game) you get the usual "You Are Infiltrating" card from Daybreak, with all the usual Daybreak rules. At the start of your first turn outside of the Brig, you discard that card and act more like a normal Human, as you are now "Completely Infiltrated." You may of course always de-infiltrate as an Action.

- Gave "Completely Infiltrated" players actual skillsets, rather than the confusing 3 extra cards with restrictions from the previous game.

- Added the "discard 5 cards to draw a Super when deinfiltrating" rule. Note that, unlike for normal Cylons, you can't do this from the Brig. This slightly decreases the power of executions vs. normal Pegasus games, but that's fine since Executions aren't fun (and they make you lose your Miracle Token, which normal Cylons don't have to worry about).

- Changed some starting locations. Six now starts on Pegasus CIC, for example.

- Swapped Athena & Cavil in the Admiral succession.
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Zach T
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The "Go Slow" Motive:

1-Distance destination doesn't work as it's auto-fail at 8+ Distance if you haven't already completed it.

Agreed that the 5-odd turns with no jump prep is basically just random chance.

For the 12-odd turns at one destination: in the last game, this motive was easily completed for the first destination post-sleeper, and nobody even had it. Obviously, doing a Mission added a turn, but even then.

How about this language:

Lay Down Your Burdens: Reveal this motive if it has been at least 11 turns since Galactica arrived at the current Destination.

That is, in a 5-player game, if you arrived at a destination during the "Advance Jump Preparation" phase of Turn 4.2, you may reveal this motive at any point in Turn 6.3 or later. For the first jump cycle, you may reveal it on Turn 3.1 or later.

If it requires you to deinfiltrate, or brig people, or scout away Jump Preps, in addition to some mild luck, then so be it.

Simon's OPT:

I like your suggestion, but I feel even that may be too easy to activate. How about one of the following as a precondition:

A) You must play 2 skill cards into a check.
B) You must play into the check, but you cannot play a 0-strength Treachery face-up into the check.
C) You must play into the check, but you cannot deactivate any effect printed on a card you played face-up into the check.

Leaning towards (A) at the moment; also makes sure he can't use it while in the Brig, which I like.
 
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So, I think I've decided on the following motives:

Infiltrate the Colonials: Reveal this card if the game is over and you are infiltrating and not in the Brig.
Salvage Their Equipment: Reveal this card if the game is over and three or fewer Galactica locations are damaged.
Toy With Their Hopes: Reveal this motive if the game is over and any resource had an increase while you held this Motive.

Cylon Democracy: Reveal this card if you are the President and were at some point previously not the President OR you have always been President, at least one resource is in the red, and you have never played a Quorum card.
Lay Down Your Burdens: Reveal this motive if it has been at least 11 10 turns since Galactica arrived at the current Destination, or Galactica has yet to jump and it is at least the 11th 10th turn of the game.
Colonials Take Warning: Reveal this card if 10 or more Raiders are in space areas.
Mutual Annihilation: Reveal this card if the game is over and you have played a Super Crisis card.

If you think any of these still need tweaking (especially Lay Down Your Burdens) let me know.

For the other Human motive, I'm considering:

Expose Security Risks: Reveal this card if there is a Centurion on board Galactica AND/OR there are 2 Heavy Raiders in space areas.
Hard Landings: Reveal this card if the game is over and 3 or more Raptors are Destroyed.

Let me know what you think!

Poll
Which Human Motive would you prefer?
Expose Security Risks (Centurions)
Hard Landings (Raptors)
      2 answers
Poll created by kingerc

 
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Carlo Gozzi
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Not sure i understand well enough "Lay down your burdens"
As to how it works...

I like both of the new motives...
I would reduce the raptor loss to 2 maybe?
Still hard to achieve
Maybe include the AR in it? / Then 3 makes more sense there

Count my vote for both of them meeple
I like them equally
 
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Zach T
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I've tweaked Lay Down Your Burdens down to 10 turns from 11 (I hadn't realized 57% of crises had jump preps, rather than 50%).

What this means in practice is:

Let's say I jump into some Destination on Doral's turn. If Galactica hasn't jumped again by the time Doral has his second turn that started at that Destination (i.e. not Doral's next turn, but the one after that), you can reveal the motive.

In other words: you can reveal the motive if every player has started at least 2 turns at the current Destination (I've since reworded the Motive that way; obviously this wording only works for a 5-player game).

----

Yeah, I'm not entirely thrilled about the Raptor motive either.

It can be very easy to complete (bad rolls, Remote Planets, the 9 crises that can destroy Raptors, Raptor Specialist), or very hard.

If you're relying on risking Raptors alone, you'd have to risk Raptors 11 times in order to have a better-than-even chance of breaking 3 of them.


----

EDIT: Added an option for Leoben to start on the Resurrection Ship, if he is a masochist.
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Zach T
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Finalized the motives; decided to go with the Raptor motive in the end. 3+ destroyed Raptors OR 2 destroyed Raptors and no intact Assault Raptors. (This way you don't necessarily need to get the last one with Raptor Specialist).

Rolling for turn order (highest first):

Vorpalgens: 1d100 = (79) = 79
anatinus: 1d100 = (43) = 43
Arkest: 1d100 = (22) = 22
Arcadious: 1d100 = (24) = 24
THN Wraith: 1d100 = (48) = 48

And Vorpalgens finally gets to go first! You can pick any of the 7 Cylon Leaders.
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  • 967280. kingerc
  • 1d100 =
  • (79) =
  • 79
  • Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:15 pm
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  • 967281. kingerc
  • 1d100 =
  • (43) =
  • 43
  • Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:15 pm
  • [+]
  • 967282. kingerc
  • 1d100 =
  • (22) =
  • 22
  • Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:15 pm
  • [+]
  • 967283. kingerc
  • 1d100 =
  • (24) =
  • 24
  • Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:15 pm
  • [+]
  • 967284. kingerc
  • 1d100 =
  • (48) =
  • 48
  • Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:15 pm
Carlo Gozzi
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Justice finally! meeple
I'm black & white by nature... looks like it follows me in my turn order as well



2 piloting
2 leadership
1 engineering


Will not leave a draw CO for now as it may change for my next turn and after seeing what i have to do
 
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Zach T
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Next up is THN Wraith!
 
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THN Wraith
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Let's try somone I've never played as before. Caprica Six reporting in.


anatinus is up next
 
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Zach T
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anatinus picks Leoben by CO.

Next up is Arcadious.
 
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THN Wraith
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I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
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While I think of it I will start in the Pegasus CIC

Starting draw will be 1 Leadership, 1 Engineering and 1 Piloting
 
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