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One Night Ultimate Werewolf» Forums » Variants

Subject: Alternate Win Condition for Villagers rss

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Steven Albano
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Hey!

Right now these are the conditions for a Village win:

1) If at least one Werewolf dies.
2) If no one is a Werewolf and no one dies.

I think this might be a better change:

1) If at least one Werewolf dies.
or
2) If no one is a Werewolf and no one dies.
or
3) If no other team wins.

This kind of changes things a bit because if nobody is actually a Werewolf, the Village team can still just all vote for one player, just in case. Which does change the dynamic a little bit. But in that situation, the Villagers would still probably win anyway - this just circumnavigates the circle vote.

But what this does is allow the Villagers to not get screwed over by a random Tanner vote. What it does is force the Villagers to have to try and figure out who the Tanner is and not vote for them. Where the circle vote involving the Tanner previously was a random chance if you won or lost, now it's strategic - who do you believe?

Now, I haven't done this with all the possible combinations of characters, but I think it works almost all the time and has less weird corner cases than circle voting randomness.

Thoughts?
 
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Jens www.spielefreun.de
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If a villager dies, the wolves win. So there is no alternative 3 - how else could the werewolves win?

Besides, the tanner's role is difficult enough to win, anyway.
 
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Steven Albano
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The third win condition wouldn't apply if there are Werewolves because the Werewolves win if they exist and nobody is lynched.

And this isn't to make the win condition of the Tanner harder - it's to prevent the "nobody wins" situation that arises when there is a Tanner and the Village wants to draw.
 
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Greg Wilson
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Does this mean that if everyone's a villager (because all wolves and other factions are in the centre) then everyone wins automatically? If they don't lynch anybody, they win under condition 2, but if they do lynch someone they win under condition 3 anyway.
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Steven Albano
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Yea.

The is the only "major" problem with it.

However, I don't know if I necessarily mind it. Was thinking about a clause like this for the alternative win condition: If nobody else won and could have, the villagers win.

That probably is a better way to put it, now that I'm thinking about it.
 
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Motorkopf wrote:
If a villager dies, the wolves win.

That's not a win condition for the werewolves. All werewolves need to survive to win. Villagers dying is irrelevant to the werewolves (except that if a villager dies it is less probable that a werewolf dies).
 
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Thomas with Subtrendy
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Part of the game is figuring not only who the werewolves are, but if there are any in the first place. This win condition kind of removes that second aspect- which is good for a house rule I guess if your villagers are having trouble ever scoring a win, but I'd get rid of it once you get more experience because it does kind of dumb down the game just a little bit.
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Steven Albano
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I'm not understanding this comment.

The intention of the rule is to stop Tanner shenanigans.


Subtrendy Gaming wrote:
Part of the game is figuring not only who the werewolves are, but if there are any in the first place. This win condition kind of removes that second aspect- which is good for a house rule I guess if your villagers are having trouble ever scoring a win, but I'd get rid of it once you get more experience because it does kind of dumb down the game just a little bit.
 
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Greg Wilson
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I guess the question is why are you okay with having a situation where the village can't lose, but not okay with having a situation where the village (almost) can't win?
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Steven Albano
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BlackSheep wrote:
I guess the question is why are you okay with having a situation where the village can't lose, but not okay with having a situation where the village (almost) can't win?


I think I'm confused by this statement too.

Ultimately, the intention of this rule is so that if you're able to deduce who the Tanner is when all the Werewolves are in the center, the Village should have the ability to win.

Because in this situation, the Tanner is the one that didn't lie well enough and should lose. But the game is set up so that the circle vote is the only way for the Village to win, and unless some miracle happens, it's not going to happen. And I think that goes against what the game is designed to do. I think giving players more agency is ultimately better.

The rule shouldn't be helping the Village in most other situations and shouldn't really ever change the dynamic of the game. It's here to give power to the Village when otherwise they have none.
 
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Greg Wilson
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colormage1 wrote:
Ultimately, the intention of this rule is so that if you're able to deduce who the Tanner is when all the Werewolves are in the center, the Village should have the ability to win.


But they don't need to work out who the Tanner is. If the wolves are in the centre, and the village circle-votes, they win. It doesn't matter who the Tanner is, or even if there is a Tanner.

Now, working out that the wolves are in the centre isn't trivial, and if the village gets that wrong then they lose. But the Tanner is irrelevant.

I've seen a houserule that the Tanner's vote doesn't count, to get a similar result.

Honestly, more and more I feel like the game just doesn't work right without at least one wolf in play. The original game did, but not with some of the added roles.
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Thomas with Subtrendy
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colormage1 wrote:
I'm not understanding this comment.

The intention of the rule is to stop Tanner shenanigans.


Subtrendy Gaming wrote:
Part of the game is figuring not only who the werewolves are, but if there are any in the first place. This win condition kind of removes that second aspect- which is good for a house rule I guess if your villagers are having trouble ever scoring a win, but I'd get rid of it once you get more experience because it does kind of dumb down the game just a little bit.


Fine then, replace "werewolves" with "tanner" in this comment. It applies the same.

The point is, the Villagers needn't get a freebie win just because they lucked out with the draw. The game is about social deduction, and sometimes even the lack of something to deduce is actually the hardest thing to figure out at all- but that's part of the challenge.

Ever play Shadows Over Camelot? Sometimes there isn't a traitor, and the hardest obstacle the knights have to overcome is their poorly placed mistrust in each other. Again, though- that's the game!

Again, friend, if feel the need to houserule this for your group, then by all means. But it's hardly a blindspot in the game.
 
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Steven Albano
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BlackSheep wrote:
But they don't need to work out who the Tanner is. If the wolves are in the centre, and the village circle-votes, they win. It doesn't matter who the Tanner is, or even if there is a Tanner.

Now, working out that the wolves are in the centre isn't trivial, and if the village gets that wrong then they lose. But the Tanner is irrelevant.

I've seen a houserule that the Tanner's vote doesn't count, to get a similar result.

Honestly, more and more I feel like the game just doesn't work right without at least one wolf in play. The original game did, but not with some of the added roles.


But the Village won't win the circle vote if the Tanner disrupts it - which I've found they almost always do. That's what this rule is trying to mitigate.
 
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Thomas with Subtrendy
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colormage1 wrote:
BlackSheep wrote:
But they don't need to work out who the Tanner is. If the wolves are in the centre, and the village circle-votes, they win. It doesn't matter who the Tanner is, or even if there is a Tanner.

Now, working out that the wolves are in the centre isn't trivial, and if the village gets that wrong then they lose. But the Tanner is irrelevant.

I've seen a houserule that the Tanner's vote doesn't count, to get a similar result.

Honestly, more and more I feel like the game just doesn't work right without at least one wolf in play. The original game did, but not with some of the added roles.


But the Village won't win the circle vote if the Tanner disrupts it - which I've found they almost always do. That's what this rule is trying to mitigate.


I see the issue with this situation, but you kind of have to ask yourself: who are you willing to screw over in this situation?

As it is, you have two sides (villagers and tanner). Both are affected by the absence of wolves. The tanner's job is to die- the villager's job is to prevent any villager deaths- this, I think, is where your rule and the official rules conflict.

So, just to be clear, what exactly would happen in this case under your rules if the tanner died? Would the villagers win, since no one was lost to a werewolf? Would they lose, since one of their own died?

It seems that the entire round is kind of moot if the latter is the case, as by the time roles are divided the villagers seem to have won by default.
 
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Greg Wilson
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colormage1 wrote:
But the Village won't win the circle vote if the Tanner disrupts it - which I've found they almost always do. That's what this rule is trying to mitigate.


Doesn't cancelling the Tanner's vote solve this problem with fewer other effects on the game? The rule you're suggesting seems to give the village the win if they mislynch in a no-wolf village as well.
 
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Clive Jones

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colormage1 wrote:
But the Village won't win the circle vote if the Tanner disrupts it - which I've found they almost always do. That's what this rule is trying to mitigate.

Don't change the rules. Instead, change your strategy.

Why are you letting somebody know they're the Tanner? Just because they started the night that way doesn't mean they ended it.

Admittedly, if the Insomniac wakes up to find they're the Tanner the problem you describe is inevitable, but how often will that happen?
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Steven Albano
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clivej wrote:
Why are you letting somebody know they're the Tanner? Just because they started the night that way doesn't mean they ended it.

Admittedly, if the Insomniac wakes up to find they're the Tanner the problem you describe is inevitable, but how often will that happen?


It's a mostly inevitable discovery of who the Tanner is, I've found.


BlackSheep wrote:
Doesn't cancelling the Tanner's vote solve this problem with fewer other effects on the game? The rule you're suggesting seems to give the village the win if they mislynch in a no-wolf village as well.


A mislynch in a no-wolf village is a problem for me. But I do think that it's less of a problem for me than a Tanner ruining a circle vote. Again, both will rarely happen, but they do.

But the Tanner being present when trying to do a circle vote just makes the game really really unfun for everyone involved. I've found, anyway.

I actually kind of like the idea of the Tanner's vote not happening. Hmmm.

 
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