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Tide of Iron» Forums » General

Subject: By the end of turn X rss

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Hugh J Jones
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There are many scenarios that have victory conditions such as "Germans win if they hold the Objective hex by the end of round 5."

Should this be interpreted as "at the end of round x" or "immediately upon holding."

We some times argue about this on certain scenarios in my group. The only reason it's a little confusing is that some scenarios do specifically say, "if x is held by so and so at the end of round y." while others do specifically say "immediately wins at the end of any round the control x"

"By the end of round x" has always been a little vague and open to interpretation in my opinion.
 
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Ray
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"By the end of round x" is after the completion of the Action Phase, Command Phase, and Status Phase, of round X, the conditions are applied.

If the scenario says, "The Germans win if they can control the victory objective by the end of round 6, otherwise the Americans win". This means once round 6 has completed the Action Phase, Command Phase, and Status Phase the game ends, and if the Germans control the victory objective, they win.

"By the end of round x" and "At the end of round x" pretty much mean the same thing. In these cases, the prepositions "By" and "At" are used as follows:
"By" meaning up to a certain time.
"At" meaning a certain point of time.




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Marcio Ferreira
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The control of hex/objectives is checked during the Command phase (rulebook p.13), which occurs after all actions in a given round have been completed.
So it is not enough to arrive there, you have to hold your position until the end of the round.

rulebook p.13 wrote:
COMMAND PHASE
After both players have completed all their actions, ending the Action Phase, play proceeds to the Command Phase. This phase represents the strategic events surrounding the scenario, as well as the lobbying for priority and prestige (which we jointly call “command”) that this battlefield is receiving from the field headquarters in the context of the wider war. These are the steps of the Command Phase, always taken in this order:
1. Determine Control over Objectives
2. Receive Command and Victory Points
3. Spend Command
4. Determine Initiative
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Jon Darlington
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Huh! I think I've wondered the same thing in the past. I realize that ownership of any objective is only established during the Command Phase at the end of any Round. But given that, I would have expected:

"At the end of Round X" clearly means that victory only comes from owning the objective at the Command Phase of Round X.

"By the end of Round X" I would have thought meant victory was achieved if the objective was owned during the Command Phase of any Round, up to and including Round X.

Here "at" means at that specific point in time; whereas "by" means at that time or before.

If I ask you to do something "by Friday", you'll succeed immediately if you do it on Tuesday.
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Hss Hss
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This is an important question, and I don't know the answere.

If the scenario says 'by the end of round 5'.
The problem is if I hold the objective at the end of round 4, will I then win or will the other side have one round to recapture the hex?

With 'at end of round 5' it is clear that the enemy will get another round. But using 'by the end of round 5' I would be inclined to interpert it as you win in the command phase of round 4.


If we are unlucky, how it is designed to be played is dependent on the scenario and the scenario designers.

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Ray
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Grand Stone wrote:
This is an important question, and I don't know the answere.

If the scenario says 'by the end of round 5'.
The problem is if I hold the objective at the end of round 4, will I then win or will the other side have one round to recapture the hex?

With 'at end of round 5' it is clear that the enemy will get another round. But using 'by the end of round 5' I would be inclined to interpert it as you win in the command phase of round 4.


If we are unlucky, how it is designed to be played is dependent on the scenario and the scenario designers.



You have to hold the objective by the end of round 5. If its round 4, the other side has one round to recapture the objective.

There are a few scenarios that say that if you control or meet your victory condition at any time you win. And a few say by/at the end any game round you win. The Normandy Farm and the Uphill Battle scenarios (page 22 and 28, Tools of War) are examples of this.
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Marcus A
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I think it true that one problem we've had with some scenarios is the wording hasn't been carefully chosen to properly articulate the objective.

Sputnik Monroe wrote:
There are many scenarios that have victory conditions such as "Germans win if they hold the Objective hex by the end of round 5."

In other words, if the Germans hold (control) the objective hex at the end of any round, but no later than the end of round 5, they win. Otherwise, they lose.

I hope I'm helping here.


RayGuns wrote:
"By the end of round x" and "At the end of round x" pretty much mean the same thing.

I must disagree.

RayGuns wrote:
In these cases, the prepositions "By" and "At" are used as follows:
"By" meaning up to a certain time.
"At" meaning a certain point of time.

I agree with that.


JDarlington wrote:
Huh! I think I've wondered the same thing in the past. I realize that ownership of any objective is only established during the Command Phase at the end of any Round. But given that, I would have expected:

"At the end of Round X" clearly means that victory only comes from owning the objective at the Command Phase of Round X.

"By the end of Round X" I would have thought meant victory was achieved if the objective was owned during the Command Phase of any Round, up to and including Round X.

Here "at" means at that specific point in time; whereas "by" means at that time or before.

If I ask you to do something "by Friday", you'll succeed immediately if you do it on Tuesday.

I agree with Jon here. In plain English usage, the word "by" (in this context) means NLT (no later than).

According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary for this context...
by: not later than <by 2 p.m.>

RayGuns wrote:
There are a few scenarios that say that if you control or meet your victory condition at any time you win. And a few say by/at the end any game round you win. The Normandy Farm and the Uphill Battle scenarios (page 22 and 28, Tools of War) are examples of this.

Let’s consider The Normandy Farm objective statement.
Tide of Iron NW, Tools of War: Normandy Farm Scenario, Pg 22 wrote:
As soon as the Americans control the VP objective, they win the game. If they don't control it by the end of game round 4, the Germans win.

Since an objective can only be controlled (when it's captured) at the end of a round, then it stands to reason that the Americans win if they control the VP objective at the end of any of the 4 rounds ("as soon as"), or, in other words, "by the end of game round 4."

Now let’s swap out the word “by” with the word “at” in this statement so it reads as follows.

“As soon as the Americans control the VP objective, they win the game. If they don't control it at the end of game round 4, the Germans win.

Now the statement is self-contradictory. shake
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Hss Hss
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I agree with Marcus A here, but the problem is if the majority of scenario designers actually meant 'at' instead of 'by'...

In most cases luckily it doesn't really mater. As most of the times, if you have taken a objective by round 5, you probably hold it at round 5 also.

This also proves how hard it is to write war-game rules. You need scientific accuracy.
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Marcus A
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Grand Stone wrote:
I agree with Marcus A here, but the problem is if the majority of scenario designers actually meant 'at' instead of 'by'...

All scenario objectives in Next Wave: Tools of War look fine, at least as they relate to this discussion. Their use of "at" and "by" is consistent within each objective and in line with plain English usage.

Insofar as I can see, the same is true for those in Days of the Fox.
 
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