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SeaFall» Forums » Rules

Subject: [SPOILER] Rule 22 rss

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David desJardins
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Questions (includes spoilers for Rule 21 and 22):

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Rule 22 says "When you conquer Ker". But how do you conquer Ker? Our best guess is that it's like conquering a colony, even though it's not a colony yet. Also, the colony rules don't exactly apply.

The city of Ker has garrison 3 and defense 6. So you raid against it and you lose 3 dice for the garrison, that must be right. I think you ignore the island garrison. Do you lose dice for enmity with Patmos?

Then, do you just need a successful endeavor (at least one success, and don't sink) to conquer Ker? Or do you also need to take no damage, like in Rule 21 (Conquering a Colony)?


Strategic Analysis (includes spoilers for gameplay as well):

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Some players have huge enmity with Patmos when it's revealed. They are really hosed until Ker is conquered, because they have huge enmity with every island. If the enmity of Patmos counts against their efforts to conquer Ker, it's virtually impossible for them to escape from this bind. And the players who have low enmity with Patmos have no particular incentive to help them out by conquering Ker.
 
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TJ
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Spoiler (click to reveal)
Raiding Ker should be treated as raiding a colony, in that you'll need 6 successes. That's all I can really say without getting spoilery.
 
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David desJardins
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1. How do you know this? From reading the rules it's not clear.

2. What about the enmity question?
 
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TJ
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Rule 23 spoilers:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Rule 23 involves raiding another colony that appears in the game, and there's less ambiguity that it's a colony. The fact that the rules for Ker are sandwiched in the middle of the rules about raiding colonies, and it's in the "Colonies" section of the rules makes it pretty clear to me that Ker is treated effectively like an inactive colony. I think if it were to be treated any different, the rules would have specified. Also, conquering Ker has pretty profound effects on the game, plus there is a milestone involved, only needing 1 success would be too trivial/easy.


As for enmity, off the top of my head I don't recall the exact wording of Rule 22, as I don't have the rulebook in front of me, but I could give my thoughts later tonight.
 
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JR Honeycutt
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Treat conquering Ker like it's conquering a Colony.

There will be players who have a much harder time doing this, as a result of their previous interaction with islands and the enmity they have there.
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TJ
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Does island enmity apply, and do you give enmity to the island if you raid Ker?
 
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JR Honeycutt
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Slyght wrote:
Does island enmity apply, and do you give enmity to the island if you raid Ker?


Yes and Yes - though I'm going from memory, and I don't have a copy of the rules in front of me.
 
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David desJardins
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jayahre wrote:
Treat conquering Ker like it's conquering a Colony.

There will be players who have a much harder time doing this, as a result of their previous interaction with islands and the enmity they have there.


That's what we guessed reading the rules, but it seems like a real screw job for the players who are disadvantaged by the situation and also have an almost impossible time changing it. The players who are getting the (relative) advantage can just let it be.
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JR Honeycutt
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DaviddesJ wrote:
jayahre wrote:
Treat conquering Ker like it's conquering a Colony.

There will be players who have a much harder time doing this, as a result of their previous interaction with islands and the enmity they have there.


That's what we guessed reading the rules, but it seems like a real screw job for the players who are disadvantaged by the situation and also have an almost impossible time changing it. The players who are getting the (relative) advantage can just let it be.


Yep - it's one of the big turning points in the game, and the answer to the question "why don't I just continuously raid islands for easy goods and enmity". There are consequences!
 
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David desJardins
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Hmm. Well, not to get on a soapbox, but when the game presents a few alternative paths/strategies that at start seem roughly equally attractive, and then halfway through reveals that one of those was the "right" choice and the other the "wrong" choice, that seems like a way to create a not so great experience for several players.

I'm the beneficiary, in this case. No doubt later I'll be the victim of something else, but still. In our game, the two players hosed by this are those who were already doing the worst, by a sizable margin.
 
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JR Honeycutt
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Hmm. Well, not to get on a soapbox, but when the game presents a few alternative paths/strategies that at start seem roughly equally attractive, and then halfway through reveals that one of those was the "right" choice and the other the "wrong" choice, that seems like a way to create a not so great experience for several players.

I'm the beneficiary, in this case. No doubt later I'll be the victim of something else, but still. In our game, the two players hosed by this are those who were already doing the worst, by a sizable margin.


Interesting that they're doing the worst - I wouldn't have guessed that.

There's still plenty more to come, and you certainly don't have to be the player who conquers Ker to win the game (no spoilers there!)
 
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David desJardins
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jayahre wrote:
Interesting that they're doing the worst - I wouldn't have guessed that.


So far, to us, the game seems highly biased toward those who focused on exploration over those who focused on raiding. That might be fair---the game is about exploration, after all---but the Ker situation just seems like piling on.

Quote:
There's still plenty more to come, and you certainly don't have to be the player who conquers Ker to win the game (no spoilers there!)


Of course not. But if the two players who can conquer Ker refrain from doing so, then the two players who can't conquer Ker are stuck with a big handicap every game. I guess eventually someone will probably conquer Ker (if only to advance the story). But the game seems set up to deter the people who can do it from wanting to do it. Just getting the colony doesn't really seem like enough of an incentive. Plus, the people who have invested in raiding are the ones who have enmity; the people with no enmity have no points in Raid.
 
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Matt S
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It was almost the exact opposite for my group. I was the one that was hurt the most by Ker and I had done almost 0 raiding. So I think it is still balanced against different types of play.
 
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TJ
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The player in the lead in our campaign has been doing a lot of raiding as well.

At least in our case, I expect that by the second game after we had discovered Patmos/Ker, all players will have removed all their permanent enmity there. Even if you don't have enmity there, there's a general incentive to conquer Ker for the milestone points (and presumed permanent upgrade), as well as to get rid of some of bad event cards.

But yeah, if the guy in the lead is hosed by having a ton of enmity on Patmos, no point in helping him out
 
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David desJardins
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Slyght wrote:
I expect that by the second game after we had discovered Patmos/Ker, all players will have removed all their permanent enmity there.


We're at 6-5-1-0. To remove 6 enmity you would need 18 tokens (on average). That's not going to happen in 2 games even if you spend zero tokens for anything.
 
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JR Honeycutt
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Or just beef up those cannons for one epic raid at Ker... enmity be damned, and hoist the mainsail!

*cannon noises*
*pirate chatter*
*screams and the sounds of swords clashing*
*rustling of flags and sails*
*trumpets and such*
 
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JR Honeycutt
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As an aside, I think people (and I don't specifically mean you, David) are treating this game far too much like a Euro and not nearly enough like a pirate game. I mean that in the best way - I can't wait to read the transcripts of those folks that make it to the end of the campaign
 
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David desJardins
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jayahre wrote:
Or just beef up those cannons for one epic raid at Ker... enmity be damned, and hoist the mainsail!


It just seems impossible with 6 enmity. If you lose 3 dice for garrison and 6 dice for enmity, and you need 6 successes (which means rolling 9 dice on average), that means you need to be generating 18 dice. Let's say you've got a ship with Raid 5 (no one does), and a support ship. I could imagine getting +4 in upgrades. Now you still need an adviser that gives you Raid +8.
 
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JR Honeycutt
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I'm surprised you don't already have an advisor at Raid +8 (or close to it)
 
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David desJardins
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Not even close. I'm not even sure we have used any of the Raid +3 stickers. If you're upgrading an advisor that you're not going to keep (because the best one for you to keep has no empty slots) then there's no particular incentive to make a good upgrade. Often people put "incompatible" upgrades (i.e., ones that correspond to different guilds) on the advisors they are discarding. And mostly our first choices have been Explore, Upgrade, etc.

I can see how it would be possible for someone to get a Raid +2/Raid +2/Raid +3 advisor, but nothing like that has happened in our game. I do remember there are one or two "special" advisors that might be able to generate more Raid +X than just the value on their card.

Anyway, I don't think this deadlock will last forever. But I do think that it's odd, again, that the people who are the most hurt by the situation also are the ones who have the hardest time doing anything about it. It just happens, in our game, to be exacerbating the rich-get-richer phenomenon.
 
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TJ
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jayahre wrote:
Slyght wrote:
Does island enmity apply, and do you give enmity to the island if you raid Ker?


Yes and Yes - though I'm going from memory, and I don't have a copy of the rules in front of me.


Double-checked the rules, and when you conquer Ker you put 4 permanent enmity on Patmos and 2 permanent enmity on island(s) of your choosing
 
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Another couple of questions regarding Ker and Patmos:

1) The Octopus box contains new buildings and ship upgrades, but Entry 250 doesn't instruct us to add them in yet. Is this deliberate (because a future rule will add them in) or an oversight? I seem to recall that previously unlocked buildings and upgrades were accompanied by a specific instruction to add them in)

2) Right now, the person who discovered Patmos gets glory for the explore endeavor (1 glory) and for completing the Milestone (2 glory). Does thIs player also get the glory shown in the inset space on the board (like they would for discovering a regular island)? Argument in favor: that's what you do for discovering regular islands. Argument against: the only rule that actually awards you that glory is printed in the Captain's Book entry you read when you find the island, and there's no such instruction in Entry 250.


(Pre-apology for posting this elsewhere, but I suspect more people are reading this thread).
 
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David desJardins
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We just added the buildings and ships. It seems like an oversight not to say to add them. If they were supposed to be set aside for some future trigger, I think that would be explicitly stated.
 
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Cool, thanks. I assume you're far enough ahead of us that if there was some other trigger introducing these components you would have seen it by now?

What about the glory question? Whst did you guys end up doing for that?
 
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David desJardins
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No, we're just at the same point as you.

 
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