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SeaFall» Forums » General

Subject: For all of the ratings - has anyone actually completed the full game? rss

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Kaleb Michaud
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I appreciate everyone rushing out gameplay reviews and video reviews, but I haven't seen anything from a reviewer who actually completed the game. I can't decide if it's that bad that none will finish it or that they can't (or haven't, yet) put in the full time needed to still get views. With all of the BGG ratings already, I expected more to have done it.

I welcome comments from all, but especially from those who finished it - do the reviewers/ratings give it justice even without completion?

Thanks!
Kaleb...
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Greg
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I'm definitely seeing very different ratings relative to how deep players are in:

1-2 games in: "I love it/it's amazing/OMG best game ever!"

6+ games in: "I never want to play this again/just kill me now."

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j n
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I based my rating on the plays I've completed so far, like I would any other game. I'll be updating it as we play further (if necessary).
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Bilal Muaqat
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zszHJv_b4dg

This reviewer has played all the way through.

SU & SD stopped playing after 6 games, I think...

I remain undeterred despite still not having my copy from PHG.
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Dave P
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After 2 games (including the opening act) its a definite "meh" with my gaming group. Perhaps it gets better and AMAZING after the 15th scenario...but does it?

I would be surprised if it makes it back to table - too many other truly FUN games that are just sitting there waiting to be played...

-Dave


 
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Joseph Neville
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I intend to keep my rating updated as I log more plays. So far, the exploring mechanic is what I find incredibly interesting (as well as opening the boxes). I have a feeling my group will want to keep playing until we have finished.

So far, after the prologue and first game, I gave it a solid 8.
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Steve
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The game hasn't been in peoples hands for very long. If you have played a game this heavy, 12-15 times in the space of 3-4 weeks, then you are probably never going to want to play it again no matter how good it is.

Think about it. You are asking reviewers to spend like 45 hours playing a game. At that point, it becomes work. But, because it is a legacy game, you cannot review it based on 2-3 games like most other games, so you cannot expect it to be reviewed like other games. It is fundamentally different.
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David Villa
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I think it is very telling that the game is not engaging people after repeated plays and reviewers are moving on to something else and can't find the time to finish it.

The Dice Tower crew devoured Pandemic Legacy and Tom has already said Seafall is definitely in last place in the Legacy line up. But how far is it lagging behind?

It seems like it's pretty far behind to me, since Shut Up Sit Down called Pandemic Legacy "Possibly The greatest game of all time" and recommended that if you had to explore Seafall, that you buy it, not play it, but just read all the secrets and sell it. That's a pretty huge divide.

Few will outright say, but the reviews from most seem to be disappointment and those who are trying to like it seem to be in denial from the hype and anticipation that surrounded the game, because you can still detect the disappointment in their non-committal reviews.
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Greg
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rawlinsusmc wrote:
...
Think about it. You are asking reviewers to spend like 45 hours playing a game. At that point, it becomes work. But, because it is a legacy game, you cannot review it based on 2-3 games like most other games, so you cannot expect it to be reviewed like other games. It is fundamentally different.


But that's exactly the point: if the game was really good, playing it so much would not feel like "work". Players who are deep into the game seem to regard finishing it as a chore, suggesting it isn't all that fun or enjoyable.
 
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j n
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Most of the reviews I've seen (positive and negative) have been useful. They've managed to talk about likes and dislikes without spoiling anything.

In general, though, the negatives people talk about are the kinds of things I think I'll be okay with, and the positives are things I'm probably going to love.

Whether this holds up over time (and whether the rest of my playgroup feels the same), time will tell.

(FWIW, I basically had to give this game a try after reading about Enmity - I feel that mechanic alone is novel enough that even if the execution isn't perfect, I want to experience it and encourage more experimentation along these lines)
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Dan Cain
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Glic2003 wrote:

I'm definitely seeing very different ratings relative to how deep players are in:

1-2 games in: "I love it/it's amazing/OMG best game ever!"

6+ games in: "I never want to play this again/just kill me now."



My group is 9 games in and we are all pretty obsessed about the game and think it is pretty spectacular. We never hit the 6th game slump that the dice tower and SUSD folks had. The only complaints my group has had has been the lack of clarity in some of the finer points of the rules and some of the choices made for production of the game. Other than those two minor quibbles we have loved everything about the game.

From the beginning we have had 3 players who have gone back and forth for the lead, two games ago a 4th player has emerged through his deft exploring to take the lead. That says something for a game we have been playing for 20+ hours.

The reviewers don't know what they are talking about, this game kicks ass.
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Dan Cain
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Glic2003 wrote:
rawlinsusmc wrote:
...
Think about it. You are asking reviewers to spend like 45 hours playing a game. At that point, it becomes work. But, because it is a legacy game, you cannot review it based on 2-3 games like most other games, so you cannot expect it to be reviewed like other games. It is fundamentally different.


But that's exactly the point: if the game was really good, playing it so much would not feel like "work". Players who are deep into the game seem to regard finishing it as a chore, suggesting it isn't all that fun or enjoyable.


Never has my group felt like finishing this game was a chore, or even playing a game of it was. In fact, when one player can't commit to the next session we try to talk them into it so we can get more games in.
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David desJardins
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dajebriza wrote:
The Dice Tower crew devoured Pandemic Legacy and Tom has already said Seafall is definitely in last place in the Legacy line up. But how far is it lagging behind?

It seems like it's pretty far behind to me, since Shut Up Sit Down called Pandemic Legacy "Possibly The greatest game of all time" and recommended that if you had to explore Seafall, that you buy it, not play it, but just read all the secrets and sell it. That's a pretty huge divide.


If "The Dice Tower" and "Shut Up Sit Down" didn't like it, surely that's a positive indication for lots and lots of BGG users.
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David Goodnuff
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DaviddesJ wrote:
...
If "The Dice Tower" and "Shut Up Sit Down" didn't like it, surely that's a positive indication for lots and lots of BGG users.


Quote for emphasis...I find my tastes these days running so diametrically opposed to SU&SD that their negative reviews are the best selling point to me for a game. (Is anyone else sad at how far SU&SD have fallen btw?)

As for DT, I think they have so much experience with games that everything feels like comparisons to other games. My group has a lot of very new players so they don't feel those comparisons when playing games.
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j n
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EvilNuff wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
...
If "The Dice Tower" and "Shut Up Sit Down" didn't like it, surely that's a positive indication for lots and lots of BGG users.


Quote for emphasis...I find my tastes these days running so diametrically opposed to SU&SD that their negative reviews are the best selling point to me for a game. (Is anyone else sad at how far SU&SD have fallen btw?)

As for DT, I think they have so much experience with games that everything feels like comparisons to other games. My group has a lot of very new players so they don't feel those comparisons when playing games.


I don't particularly feel like SUSD has fallen, but I've disagreed with them on more than one occasion.

I feel like they generally do a good job of explaining what gets them excited and what lets them down, which is important to me as a consumer of reviews. Basically, their review helped set my expectations for Seafall, but none of their complaints actually seemed like things that would hold me back from liking the game.

Basically since I started watching them their conclusions have been hit or miss for me, but their information has been consistently valuable (and their entertainment value has also been consistent).
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Clyde W
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DaviddesJ wrote:
dajebriza wrote:
The Dice Tower crew devoured Pandemic Legacy and Tom has already said Seafall is definitely in last place in the Legacy line up. But how far is it lagging behind?

It seems like it's pretty far behind to me, since Shut Up Sit Down called Pandemic Legacy "Possibly The greatest game of all time" and recommended that if you had to explore Seafall, that you buy it, not play it, but just read all the secrets and sell it. That's a pretty huge divide.


If "The Dice Tower" and "Shut Up Sit Down" didn't like it, surely that's a positive indication for lots and lots of BGG users.
How so? Are you suggesting that lots and lots of people have exactly opposite opinions about games as Dice Tower, for every single game they've ever reviewed?
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j n
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clydeiii wrote:
How so? Are you suggesting that lots and lots of people have exactly opposite opinions about games as Dice Tower, for every single game they've ever reviewed?


It seems practically a given that there will be lots of gamers with opposing tastes to any particular reviewer. (It doesn't need to be "every single game").
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David desJardins
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clydeiii wrote:
Are you suggesting that lots and lots of people have exactly opposite opinions about games as Dice Tower, for every single game they've ever reviewed?


Your opinions don't have to be "exactly opposite" for their dislike to be a positive sign. You only have to be opposite more often than you are aligned.
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Josh
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dajebriza wrote:
Tom has already said Seafall is definitely in last place in the Legacy line up.


In other words, Tom has it in third place.
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Keith Romero
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My group has played 12 games now. We've pretty much quit, and there's only one box left to open.

The game has little sense of balance between the competitive nature of the victory point track and the story. If you plan to win, you will probably lose to someone who randomly trips over story stuff. The game requires people who plan for wins, though, as the only way to get the story moving is through difficult tasks that unlock achievements. This leads to people just jockeying around trying not to have to be the one that unlocks something, because the next person will swoop in and take the points from new story elements and unlocked mechanics (which can offer more points than the unlocks for less effort).

Everyone in my group is frustrated and annoyed. The game has amazing ideas implemented poorly. If you make a competitive '4Xish' game, there has to be a way to plan for victory. Everything about this game after the first few plays seems undertested. IMHO, it would have been much better as a cooperative game.

There are also some elements later that make it very easy to accidentally 'cheat' that involve the cards and reflectivity. This can be a little offputting since nobody really wants to cheat, but you don't really control where the light is coming from.

My suggestion is to warn people that this game is only really playable as a "friendly" cempetition. People can't get upset when they spend hours planning and executing their way to a heavy lead, only to be completely shut down by a guy messing around randomly off in a corner. Because that will happen.

I do hope to be able to finish one day, though, because I love the game's story and the way that story is presented. You just have to abandon all sense of competition to enjoy it.
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David desJardins
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I'm not as far along as Keith, but what I've seen is fairly compatible with him. I do think planning and strategy matter more than he does, but I also think there are large unpredictable swings that are going to happen to you even if you make reasonable choices, so you have to accept that winning or losing is largely out of your control.
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Thomas Robb
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The problem for me (with reviewers), is when they talk about whether a game is good, or whether they like it, or how much fun it is, etc. It's kind of like watching a political debate.
Our ideas are good
Our plan is best for the economy
Our candidate is the best, everybody knows that


So, if watching a review of ice cream, and the reviewer liked the chocolate and eating it was fun, but the strawberry and vanilla were boring - does that really tell you anything about strawberry or vanilla - or even the chocolate? So, if I never had any of the three flavors before, and I want to try them, I guess I could go with chocolate, I mean, he liked it and not the others . . .

It seems that so far, I like about one half of games that reviewers like. But that does not help me decide on whether or not to purchase a game. The fact that SUSD or Tom Vasel likes or dislikes a game doesn't help me because if I bought games based on that, only one half of what I bought would be games that I would play more than once.

I watch videos and look for comments about the game and then try to decide what is it about this game that my group would enjoy? And, since my group has different personalities, some of them will like some games and not others. Which of my individual gamers is right for this game? Can I sell this game to them when they first play it? Can I convince them while teaching that the game in front of them is worth a try? Is it a type of genre that they played before and asked to play again? Is the depth too little, too much, etc.? Does it take 2 or 3 plays to learn, and who in my group is willing to do that and who isn't? Do they like games with instant gratification or are they willing to have more patience? What is the emotional "catch" that might interest them? Or is there a more "intellectual" catch that would capture their interest?

I really think Drive Thru Reviews is one of the best on the net. Joel usually has some comments that are insightful.

When I watched a Dice Tower review of Dead of Winter the Long Night, they mostly talked about what they liked and didn't like about the new expansion. Here's how you play it, this is what we liked or thought was interesting.

When I watched the Drive Thru Review of the same game, Joel made a comment about the psychology of players making decisions that coincided with their moral quotient, drawing lines of what was acceptable to them and not acceptable in a dangerous situation. One comment was that one player could not kill a fictitious player (with certain circumstances) on a card because he could not do that in real life. He could not do the immoral thing, even though it would help his team, and even though it was only a board game. Then Joel commented that 15-20 minutes later in the game, he realized what a moment that was in his board game life - that a player made a game decision in that way - and it also changed how Joel looked at the game and the morality of that situation.
Now that's insight!

Radho, Richard Hamm, also injects insight into his explanations, if you don't mind the comments coming at you like a machine gun. I believe Richard was a computer programmer and his mind races at a high speed. If you focus on his words, he will often give you an extreme, precision type of explanation of the game he is reviewing and how it works - at least it gives you information about if it might be your play style.

When I watched the SUSD review of Sea Fall, Quinns(?) was mostly negative. Because he did not want to spoil anything, the negative details were not discussed - so the review didn't tell me much of anything except he and his group did not like it well enough to finish it out. I watch SUSD reviews mostly because of the humor, anyway - Quinns is the best game board reviewing comedian on the net! IMHO - this is not a review of reviewers, if it was, there would be more insight LOL

So, to complete my rambling, I watch reviews to look at the game, see how it plays, and then try to derive my own insight (sometimes subtle) from the comments I hear from the reviewer.

My favorite "insightful" reviewer comments:

"I like this game"
"It is fun"
"The art work is appealing"
"The art work is ok"
"This game is too long for what it is"
"I don't like long games"
"I like area control games, but not this one"
"That game is so boring"
"It's too fiddly"
"Quinns is the best board game comedian on the net"


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TJ
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For what it's worth, it's hard to talk about what you like/dislike about this game because so much is hidden behind boxes. The Dice Tower's spoiler-filled impressions of the game point out a lot of valid specific issues with SeaFall that people have with the game, but they are hard to articulate in a non-spoiler review.

Box 2 spoiler:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
For example, Sam is frustrated that you can spend an entire game upgrading your ship's hold and collecting goods to build a colony, only to have the game end before you can build it, and you've effectively wasted a whole game with nothing to show for it, as those upgrades and goods don't carry over to the next game. This is a valid criticism of the game, and it's happened at least twice in our campaign. But in the non-spoiler review, Sam can only say "I spent three-quarters of a game trying to do something" and it just sounds like he's just upset he's not winning or something along those lines.
 
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I'd say it's over rated currently. A more reasonable rating would be 5-6, imho....
 
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David desJardins
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Slyght wrote:
For what it's worth, it's hard to talk about what you like/dislike about this game because so much is hidden behind boxes. The Dice Tower's spoiler-filled impressions of the game point out a lot of valid specific issues with SeaFall that people have with the game, but they are hard to articulate in a non-spoiler review.


Players in our game have definitely had this issue. You can try to do something but you can't predict how many rounds the game will last (because players can unexpectedly get glory in large chunks) and so you can be almost done but have nothing to show for your efforts. I don't think you need spoilers to explain that; it's a real problem.
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