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Deep Madness» Forums » General

Subject: My overview of the game rss

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reaching out from the in-between spaces...
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Baldwin
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i read the manual...

...and I don't really see anything special about this game. You have 3 actions. I'm pretty sure you can guess what they are based on this type of game (move, search, trade, etc., etc).

The only tactical play I could glean is that when you move through a closed hatch, the enemy *might* not be able to follow. If an enemy movement takes it through a hatch, the players roll 2D6 to see if it can do it. If they do, hatch is destroyed. If they can't, they stay in their room.

The board is small, with a hero moving 1 space for each move action. And you just move from adjacent space to adjacent space. The rules as is, it feels like Zombicide has more tactical play.

Now there are a few *unique* mechanics to the game:

1. Turn order. Hero cards are lined up on top, monster cards right below. The turn order than alternates between hero and monster. At the end of the turn, last player gets moved to first player spot, everyone moves down. My opinion from a solo perspective is that this takes up table space and seems fiddly. I understand it may add to the tactical play, but I just don't see the payoff.

2. Corrupted Rooms. Slowly, safe rooms get flipped and become corrupted. Bad guys are spawned. Some rooms may even end up filled with water...

3. Oxygen dial. You go swimming you spend oxygen points. Bad things happen you spend oxygen points. You roll dice when your oxygen counter gets low. If you don't roll well, you take damage. I'd rather take damage than have to roll more dice. My opinion is that this seems like a tacked on third meter (next to health and sanity) meant to thematically convey that the players are in an underwater facility.

The card play for actions in Fireteam Zero really exemplifies, for me, a tactical/puzzl-ey game play. I don't see anything like that here. You just move to that space to avoid a creature, or that one to fight a creature, or this other one to pick up an objective.

The exploration and 'investigation' in Mansions of Madness 2nd edition really covers that genre well. Here, we have a number of fixed scenarios that tell a larger story. Each scenario will introduce different mechanics and objectives.

Another issue is that this is the designers first published work. It's also the publishers first endeavor. I haven't heard, yet, about any blind playtest sessions.

Also, no player scaling. From the rulebook:

Each player chooses his investigator based on the number of players:
1 player: 4 investigators.
2 players: 3 investigators each.
3 players: 2 investigators each.
4-6 players: 1 investigator each.

So if you and a buddy want to play, you need to manage 3 investigators. Each.

To sum up:

The ruleset looks pretty normal for this genre. Generic.
What there is in the way of 'unique' mechanics doesn't wow me at all.
The theme is interesting. The mini's look great. But I don't see this game doing anything as good or better than the 2 previous mentioned games.


I dislike to bash a game I have never played, but these are my impressions after reading the entire KS page and the rulebook. I watched the Undead Viking preview and he even says something along the lines of tried and true gameplay for this genre.

With the deluge of games that cover this type of gameplay:

Shadows of Brimstone
Zombicide
Conan
Mansions of Madness
Fireteam Zero
Imperial Assault
Descent
Lobotomy
Do I need to go on...

You really need to do something different. I don't see it.

Jorune
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Eric
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That being said, even if the game is somewhat simple, I wonder how fun it actually is to play. Wish we had more reviews to go off of.
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John
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I think you're missing the uniqueness of each monster in Deep Madness, which greatly diminishes my long term playability of Zombicide for me. In Zombicide the base game only comes with 4 types of monsters. The only real difference is the amount of spaces they move and the type of weapon you need to damage them. The structure of each Zombicide game is almost always the same, search until you find the uber weapons, and watch out for double activations as you complete the objectives.

This game already has 21 unique enemies not including the expansion or Epic monster add-ons. Each monster has his own a.i. and unique abilities far greater than just health +1 or move +1.

Also in Zombicide the main thing that kills you is the double activation card, other than that the horde is easy to plan for since they all move together at the end of the turn. In Deep Madness, it's hero then monster, hero then monster, etc... This means that monsters will move and interact with the board much more frequently, and the heroes at position 6 will have to deal with possible 5 monster group activations before his turn comes up.

Each tile in Deep Madness also seems more interesting than Zombicide since the only thing you can do in Zombicide is search or open doors. In Deep Madness you have to worry about flooded rooms which drain your oxygen, devoured rooms which comes with 3 random debuffs per tile plus a monster spawn, barricading hatches, managing your sanity and madness, the doom tracker which will add random hazards and events to each game, and also possible epic monsters which will shake things up.

Each scenario also seems more replayable because the objective cards are randomized, sort or like the Eldritch Horror injury cards where the back side is different for each card. Also, you only use 6 monster types per game so you can have a totally different group of monsters for each game, the random nature of the devoured tiles coming up will also change up how each scenario is played.

Hopefully this means that each time you play a scenario it becomes a unique puzzle different from the last game (A common complaint is Fireteam Zero can feel repetitive quickly and is too basic and simplistic).
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Loig Roumois
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I'm here (on the KS campaign) mainly for the minis. If there's a game around them, then this is a "free" bonus for me. I might even reuse the tiles on other games... The minis for sure will find themselves in many other games (some of which you mentioned above). For example I'll create a new "Sin" for The Others and a new faction or independent GOO for Cthulhu Wars. the possibilities are endless
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Shelby Babb
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Jorune wrote:

I dislike to bash a game I have never played, but these are my impressions after reading the entire KS page and the rulebook.


It's okay not to like every flashy Kickstarter that comes along. I'm sure your wallet thanks you for it.

For me I'm not looking for "new innovations" in this project as much as lots of miniatures I can use in my tabletop RPGs. The actual game -is- important to me as well, but I'm happy as long as it offers me some variant of Zombicide. I can respect someone feeling this is just another entry in the "dungeon crawl dice chucker" genre, and skipping it because of that, but that doesn't inherently mean it's a bad game as much as derivative.

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R.P. Kraul
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Jorune, thanks for putting this together. I've been giving DM a lot of thought. Despite Diemension doing their homework (they prepared very well), despite the nice offering of components (they look great)--I'm still a bit lukewarm. And you nailed why. This is reminding me a great deal of a CMON game, which is to say it has nice components and really, really simple gameplay. That's fine if it's the only game of this type you own, or if you don't mind the sameness. But I've got SOB, MOM 2ed, and I'm still waiting for Gloomhaven, which has a hell of a lot more meat on the bones, and Pandemonium, which has some clever mechanics that set it apart a bit. I'm not sure what this game offers, aside from nice miniatures.
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Magic Pink
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I agree. I love horror games but there's very little game here. It's just relying on the minis and while they're nice, it's not enough.
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Ondrej Kocnar
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Magic Pink wrote:
I agree. I love horror games but there's very little game here. It's just relying on the minis and while they're nice, it's not enough.


I think this is in the eye of beholder.

This is definitively more complex than Zombicide
and subjectively looks much more interesting for me.
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Ondrej Kocnar
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Jorune wrote:


The board is small, with a hero moving 1 space for each move action. And you just move from adjacent space to adjacent space. The rules as is, it feels like Zombicide has more tactical play.

Jorune


I do not think it is so and I am afraid that that is just pure speculation on your part.

I don´t want to bash your opinion but I just feel you are unnecessarily strict.
 
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Shane
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I've been trying to decide between this and Warriors: Turf War. Both campaigns end on the same day, and I can only afford one. So far, it seems Warriors is more fun and less like anything else I have. Deep Madness looks like it has some gorgeous components, but seems to be so much like every other miniature board game.
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Ondrej Kocnar
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Jorune wrote:

With the deluge of games that cover this type of gameplay:

Shadows of Brimstone
Zombicide
Conan
Mansions of Madness
Fireteam Zero
Imperial Assault
Descent
Lobotomy
Do I need to go on...

You really need to do something different. I don't see it.

Jorune


There most probably are some substantial differences.

Shadows: much more fidly and campaign-y, tactically different too
Zombicide: close, but with key differences, probably tactically simpler,
much simpler monsters, some people (like me) really hate the zombies
Conan: very different - one vs. many, some euro-like mechanics
Mansion of Madness: app based, possibly much less or differently tactical
Fireteam Zero: has pretty specific puzzle-like board and card management
(which I personally do not like)
Imperial Assault: one vs. many, campaign-dependens, very different theme
Descent: one vs. many, campaign-dependent, quite different theme
Lobotomy: not even published yet, does not seem to be the best representative of the genre

And all of them have of course somehow different theme, which will deciding factor for many.

Edit:

I did not want to sound contrarian, I am just adding my - hopefully reasoned - opinion.
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reaching out from the in-between spaces...
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Baldwin
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San Dee Jota wrote:


For me I'm not looking for "new innovations" in this project as much as lots of miniatures I can use in my tabletop RPGs. The actual game -is- important to me as well, but I'm happy as long as it offers me some variant of Zombicide. I can respect someone feeling this is just another entry in the "dungeon crawl dice chucker" genre, and skipping it because of that, but that doesn't inherently mean it's a bad game as much as derivative.



Exactly. Deep Madness certainly isn't, as far as I can tell, a bad game. Again, based on the rules and Undead Vikings preview, the game seems to have taken the standard mechanics from this genre and put a twist on things.

For those new to the genre, this looks to be a great start. For others who have many games of this type, unless the theme grabs you, I don't think the mechanics are different enough.

Jorune

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Greg
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There are some interesting points in this thread. To me, it looks like the game has a strong "B movie" kind of styling. So it would be a little weird to me if it was a super-detailed, complex strategy game. I mean, with a title like "Deep Madness" I'd be expecting the board game equivalent of an action movie, not some delicately-balanced Euro style game with in depth planning.

Having said that, I hope the gameplay isn't completely brainless. Part of the problem for me is the game's timing: by the time it comes out, I'll already have Massive Darkness, Dark Souls, Rum and Bones and probably at least one or two other miniatures games, so the experience Deep Madness provides might be a little redundant at that point.

I mean, assuming all these games ship on time... HAH!

 
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John
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Speaking of miniatures, some pics of the resin casts

Imagine having a character pinned by one of those monstrosities in a flooded room and slowly drowning to death.



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You may call me
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I think at this point in the dungeon crawl genre, for those of use who have played many of them, gameplay has to be different enough to warrant another game.

I mean I LOVE the miniatures and theme here. But the "toys" aren't enough when I've already invested in other similar games.

Galaxy Defenders/Sword & Sorcery: GD took the simplistic D&D adventure system and added meat to the bones with arguably the best enemy AI out there. It also a nice story arc campaign with levelling up.

Gears of War/Fireteam Zero: GoW brought something new with the cards as actions and health mechanic. FTZ took that and added even more meat to that with using the cards as Reactions on other players' turn making it the epitome of a great co-operative game.

Gloomhaven/Perdition's Mouth: Both these games removed dice and use variable card decks to add randomness as well as introducing (Gloomhaven) legacy elements or (Perdition's Mouth) a rondel for both heroes and enemy actions.

I actually consider Deep Madness along the lines of something like Vampire Hunters, which obviously derived it's core mechanics from Zombicide and added a few more thematic mechanics on top of the core system. So while that isn't bad per se, I already own or KSed all of the games I've mentioned. Therefore, it is very hard to see what sets this game apart.

However, I agree that if you don't have many games in this genre, this might be a good buy.
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Mike
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The miniatures are definitely outstanding in their look. A year or two ago and I would probably be all over this game. But I am feeling buried in the really good dungeon delve genre games I have already. Jorune did a good job mentioning so many prominent ones and with Conan around the corner and all the cool App driven stuff FFG is doing with Descent, MoM 2, and eventually SW:IA... I am out of hours to play them all. And SoB has a new KS coming soon that introduces a Japanese theme, so I would be an idiot not to jump on that bandwagon and bury myself further in SoB goodness. And Zombicide... how many of us aren't already buried in that game. LOL! It is a kid favorite for some tactical monster bashing around here. Oh, we cannot forget Massive Darkness coming next year... plus The Others that just hit in August and some more Arcadia Quest around the corner. I have to stop. This could go on forever.

In truth, I am glad we are flooded with so many games. I also forgot to mention Vampire Hunters. LOL!
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Major Havok
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Wetworks wrote:
Speaking of miniatures, some pics of the resin casts


I sure wish resin versions of these were available for purchase for professional paint jobs.
 
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Greg
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matthewabair wrote:
Wetworks wrote:
Speaking of miniatures, some pics of the resin casts


I sure wish resin versions of these were available for purchase for professional paint jobs.


Yeah, I know it would be prohibitively expensive, but man I really hate looking at those digital renders and knowing the real minis won't look that good.
 
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Major Havok
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Glic2003 wrote:
matthewabair wrote:
Wetworks wrote:
Speaking of miniatures, some pics of the resin casts


I sure wish resin versions of these were available for purchase for professional paint jobs.


Yeah, I know it would be prohibitively expensive, but man I really hate looking at those digital renders and knowing the real minis won't look that good.


For "The Others: 7 Sins" it was possible to order resin minis outside of the KS campaign. I've asked the Deep Madness folks directly if they had considered doing this. Miniatures can be on a MUCH higher price point than these silly board games.
 
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Ricky W
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Logus Vile wrote:
I think at this point in the dungeon crawl genre, for those of use who have played many of them, gameplay has to be different enough to warrant another game. (...)

I actually consider Deep Madness along the lines of something like Vampire Hunters, which obviously derived it's core mechanics from Zombicide and added a few more thematic mechanics on top of the core system. (...) Therefore, it is very hard to see what sets this game apart.

This reflects my opinion well.

I backed Vampire Hunters which imho did a great job in taking Zombicide basics and adding several cool mechanics (day/night, combi-attacks, monster ai cards, harpoon-pull...) to enrich gameplay. As Zombicide's mechanics were too simple for the taste of our group I'm quite sure VH will deliver what we missed in ZC.

Admittedly Deep Madness has a great theme, great miniatures and probably solid gameplay, but loses the competition against Vampire Hunters, so my wallet can breath a sigh of relief.

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There sure has been an influx of this type of games lately, but I think there are room for some more.

From the rules this game looks like a more complex version of Zombicide: Black Plague. The activation order is a big difference, and I suspect that it will have a major impact how the game is played. Also the different monsters give a new flair for the game.

The bottom line still are the minis. There are lot of people who like painting minis, and once you have painted your set, you want something else to paint.

If the game is good, like this seems to be from the rules point of view, there is demand for it, regardless how similar it is to an existing games. And in this case I think that it even innovates, and distinguishes itself from the other games of the genre.

My only concern with the game right now, is the project itself. There are real risks that the project never finishes, or is delayed greatly, and a possibility of a scam.
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Shelby Babb
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Glic2003 wrote:

Yeah, I know it would be prohibitively expensive, but man I really hate looking at those digital renders and knowing the real minis won't look that good.


I dunno'. Two years ago I might have been inclined to agree, but the quality of minis just keeps getting better and better. Zombicide: Black Plague and The Others were both pretty impressive.

EDIT: which isn't a guarantee of quality in -this- game, by this company, but I'm willing to make that bet.
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Greg
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San Dee Jota wrote:
Glic2003 wrote:

Yeah, I know it would be prohibitively expensive, but man I really hate looking at those digital renders and knowing the real minis won't look that good.


I dunno'. Two years ago I might have been inclined to agree, but the quality of minis just keeps getting better and better. Zombicide: Black Plague and The Others were both pretty impressive.


Well, that's encouraging. I'm a miniatures purist, so I remember when all minis were made of metal*. I'm only just now stepping into the world of PVC "board game" style minis and I hope they aren't going to be too disappointing.

I think the only game I currently own with PVC minis is StarCraft, and to be fair, the minis in that game do look really good (especially considering their small scale).

*I'm actually glad metal miniatures are virtually extinct. They look great but they're just really impractical and difficult to work with.
 
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Shelby Babb
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Glic2003 wrote:
I'm only just now stepping into the world of PVC "board game" style minis and I hope they aren't going to be too disappointing.


If you want to know what's possible with stuff out there, go look at some of the painting videos on YouTube. You can see the actual minis, and what somebody can paint them up as.

Again, no promise of quality in this KS, but I think you'll be impressed with what's out there.

Glic2003 wrote:

*I'm actually glad metal miniatures are virtually extinct. They look great but they're just really impractical and difficult to work with.


My first real miniatures experience was with a boxed set of "beaky" space marines back in the day. I think it was $20 for 30 marines, with sprues of possible arms and gear and heads.

After customizing and painting them up, I never came to appreciate metal except for repainting and heft (it -is- nice to feel like you have something you could bludgeon a person with at times).
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Nick
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I have to agree that this game doesn't seem super original in terms of game mechanics, but the theme is very nice, served with well made miniatures aesthetics.
 
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