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Conan» Forums » Variants

Subject: Free Hero choice sheet rss

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Chris Shark
Germany
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I backed the King and what was delivered was a ton of stuff. Sadly Monolith is lacking inspiration when it comes to variety in heroes and/or equip. Over all the delivered scenarios there is only a hand full of heroes and items/spells used. I do understand that it may be easier to balance, but on the other hand it is frustrating to have a ton of stuff and no guidelines for using it.

That’s why I sat down and designed a sheet which enables players to actually choose their characters and equip within some boundaries. The sheet is not nearly perfect and will need some thoroughly testing and evaluating, but it is a good point to start.

How to:
• Assemble some players and pick a scenario, set it up and read instructions and special rules. This includes checking if differ from the suggested
heroes and equip makes sense. In some of the scenarios the heroes start without any equip for example. In such cases you can still use the sheet but
should provide the equipment in the same way the scenario would do (i.e. stored in a room or in chests etc.).

• Use the sheet to determine Hero-pool and Group-points.

• Stick to the following general rules:
- Players may choose Heroes and Heroines in accordance to the given difficulty in the scenario and the list.
- Choosing a Hero/Heroine below scenarios given difficulty is allowed.
- The number of Heroes with the "Spell Caster"-skill is limited to 1.
- Players can freely spend their Group-points among Heroes and Equipment and/or Spells as they see fit.
- A hero must not start with more than 3 parts of equipment.
- Heroes with the "Spell Caster"-skill must not start with more than 3 spells.
- Exceeding Group-points limit grants additional red gems for the overlord, allocated in his reserve at the start of the scenario, but is still
subject to the Overlords agreement and should be considered very, very carefully.

The sheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yHT8wvUGjmUi63ufw7BL...

If you have any ideas or thoughts on this, let me know. Also it would be super cool to hear about your experience with the sheet laugh


Cheers
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Stephan Beal
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Battleshark wrote:

- Players can freely spend their Group-points among Heroes and Equipment and/or Spells as they see fit.


Keep in mind that seemingly simple changes can break a scenario. e.g. The balance of Hunting the Tigress will swing, possibly drastically, in the heroes' favor if Conan is allowed to use a two-handed weapon. (As written, he gets only a sword, so he can't Cleave through multiple pirates at once.) Likewise, if Shivvy starts that scenario with a Crossbow then none of the minions are safe from him.
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André Heines
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Well, large weapons are not that usefull on ships, since the rigging has some kind of blocking skill.
 
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Artur Biesiadowski
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Do I read it correctly that chosing Belit versus Conan is point-equivalent choice?

Plus, let's consider In the Clutches of the Picts for full number of players:

Conan (Battle Axe, Shield, Leather Armor) 17+6+2=25
Shevatas (Kris, Throwing Knives) 2+2=4
Hadrathus (Dagger, Teleport, Mitra's Halo, Lightning Storm) 1+3+6+16=26
Belit (Ornamental Lance) 10

Total is 65 points. According to your table they should fit in 45 points. This seems to be a big difference.

I think that many values in the table are off regarding to each other (especially Kiss of Death is overvalued, taking into account it is one-use, while difference between Sets Halo and Mitras Halo is probably too small), but thats secondary at the moment.

What I think would be great, is to enter all premade scenarios on second page of sheet, with cells referencing proper values in first worksheet and being added together. Then we could see how it balances versus Monolith proposals and tweak either item costs or total scenario points and see it updated in realtime.
 
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seb seb2
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i don't think you could do that easily.
There are also some specific maps/scenarios where some skills are really usefull/mandatory for balance issues. (jump/climb etc).
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Chris Shark
Germany
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Belsamoreth wrote:
i don't think you could do that easily.
There are also some specific maps/scenarios where some skills are really usefull/mandatory for balance issues. (jump/climb etc).
Battleshark wrote:

How to:
• Assemble some players and pick a scenario, set it up and read instructions and special rules. This includes checking if differ from the suggested
heroes and equip makes sense. In some of the scenarios the heroes start without any equip for example. In such cases you can still use the sheet but
should provide the equipment in the same way the scenario would do (i.e. stored in a room or in chests etc.).

To be clear, using this variant will put the balancing of your scenario on the line. It is a 1st draft and will need a lot of improvements, if ever sufficent, before it can be considered "balanced"


sgbeal wrote:
Battleshark wrote:

- Players can freely spend their Group-points among Heroes and Equipment and/or Spells as they see fit.

Keep in mind that seemingly simple changes can break a scenario. e.g. The balance of Hunting the Tigress will swing, possibly drastically, in the heroes' favor if Conan is allowed to use a two-handed weapon. (As written, he gets only a sword, so he can't Cleave through multiple pirates at once.) Likewise, if Shivvy starts that scenario with a Crossbow then none of the minions are safe from him.

Yes, this is a serious problem in regards to points and the provided scenarios. Same goes for spells. It is quite difficult to find the right spot between to high cost and good opportunity to use. I beleive it can be found but it will need further testing.

abies wrote:
Do I read it correctly that chosing Belit versus Conan is point-equivalent choice?
Plus, let's consider In the Clutches of the Picts for full number of players:
Conan (Battle Axe, Shield, Leather Armor) 17+6+2=25
Shevatas (Kris, Throwing Knives) 2+2=4
Hadrathus (Dagger, Teleport, Mitra's Halo, Lightning Storm) 1+3+6+16=26
Belit (Ornamental Lance) 10
Total is 65 points. According to your table they should fit in 45 points. This seems to be a big difference.
I think that many values in the table are off regarding to each other (especially Kiss of Death is overvalued, taking into account it is one-use, while difference between Sets Halo and Mitras Halo is probably too small), but thats secondary at the moment.
What I think would be great, is to enter all premade scenarios on second page of sheet, with cells referencing proper values in first worksheet and being added together. Then we could see how it balances versus Monolith proposals and tweak either item costs or total scenario points and see it updated in realtime.


On hero choices:
I assigned all heroes in the list a diff-lvl based on their Action-dices and skills. The idea was to give some freedom to players when it comes down to character choices but on the other hand keep them in check in regards to the scenario balancing. As far as I see it, none of the heroes in the levels is drastically exceeding the others. Should be a go but if not, let me know

On point costs:
There are generally two ways to provide players with equipment. The easy one is to simply determine everything. The –slightly, more complex one is to allow freedom of choice.
To achieve this, I did exactly what you proposed. Assigned points to spells and equip and had a look how many points the scenarios provide. I mean Monolith had to do something similar to balance it, so it was obvious to do so. When I was finished I did some checks and recognized that the values where to high for the difficulty. Each character could go with best spells and equip and that should never be the case if you consider looting chests a nice mechanic. So my next step was to decrease the points in favor of freedom of choice. Like mentioned before, some equipment/spells break the scenarios balancing easy. Example was the “Hunting The Tigress” scenario. Ranged weapons or spells with area effect are impacting hard on this one. I had to find that out in 30 hurtful minutes That’s why the Halberd, which is one of the best weapons in the game, is priced with 20 points. If you and your team only got a small amount to go and all players want to choose some meaningful stuff, this should becoming an intense discussion between players : P
But I think I was overly cautious when reducing the Group-points that low. I raised them already after calculating a few examples like the one below and will give them a few tries, to see if they fit.

Exmaple Heroes for the “The Cluthces Of The Picts”
Conan: Sword, Leather Armor, Shield (18)
Shevatas: Bossonian Bow, Kris, (10)
Hadratus: Teleportation, Mitras Halo, Boris Rage (17)
Belit: Ornametal Spear, Lether Armor (12)
Sum: 57 pts.

Still I’m not sure about all of this stuff. Maybe there is no way to balance it out but like a true Cimerian, I’ll never give up!

@All: Let me know what’s on your mind.

Cheers


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Robert Matejczuk
Poland
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Good idea for making game more balanced
The same problem for me appear when I mix all KS content in Zombicide: Black Plague. Where if you didn't select proper heroes you usually lose easily...
 
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k c
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Have you seen the character comparison table that one of the playtesters uploaded? It might help with the fine tuning...

wonderful-components-suggested-heroes-items-and-sp
 
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Chris Shark
Germany
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Dragonheart666 wrote:
Good idea for making game more balanced
The same problem for me appear when I mix all KS content in Zombicide: Black Plague. Where if you didn't select proper heroes you usually lose easily...

Thank u sir! It is exactly like you say. The sceanrios have a good balancing as long as one does not try to change anyting. The moment you do change something in the wrong, either side is beeing punished for it. Good to see that I'm not the only one whos interested in sorting this out a bit


kdc629 wrote:
Have you seen the character comparison table that one of the playtesters uploaded? It might help with the fine tuning...
wonderful-components-suggested-heroes-items-and-sp

Thanks mate! Didn't have seen this one. This will definetley help balance heroes and Monsters out.


On chest items:
I forgot to mention, in every scenario there are weapons locked in chests. They are not factored in the numbers. If players choose a wepon which is already in the list for chest items, simply replace it with a "empty" card or, if you want to make things a bit easier, with a potion.

On tiered items:
We had a session yesterday and my group suggested to not only tier the heroes for a certain difficulty, but do the same for the items. I think its a good idea. That way OL could provie some variety, and thats the goal here, but it would reduce the possibility of breaking the balancing by maxing out with the points. I think I'll give that one a thought and see i fit would make sense to do so.

As always, let me know what you're thinking.

Cheers
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raul martin
Spain
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Thats good idea, limit objects according to difficulty. Great work...
 
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Chris Shark
Germany
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After another couple of rounds, I did a few improvements on the sheet.
You will find anything in detail below.

Patch Notes v0.5:
- New, not printer friendly, but better to read design.
- Extended General Rules and better overview for dice colors and effects.
- Enhanced information on Hero-choices by adding more information regarding Heroes abilities and skills to the sheet.
- Items and Spell sheets do now contain more information about weight, gems, targets etc.

- Rebalanced Group-points for all difficulty levels.
- Rebalanced Hero choice tiers.
- Rebalanced Items point cost and added difficulty restrictions.
- Rebalanced Spells point cost and added difficulty restrictions.


Link to the new Excel-sheet:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0jT78vJBJ3NRnVpTWhldkVaUVU...

Link to the new Open Document sheet:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0jT78vJBJ3NWUUwVWtVenlEaEk...



If you give those rules a try, let me know!
Cheers

P.s. Google is messing with the preview. If you dl the sheet everthing should be ok
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Raphael Leroux
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Thanks !

an easy way to use various heroes and equipment.
I believe KS and addon stuff are not made to stay in their respective boxes.
 
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Mad Halfling
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Thanks, that looks really useful.

Is that complete, or are you still assessing some of the other heroes? King Conan from the King's Pledge doesn't seem to be on there (unless Google is messing it up) nor do the add-on boxes heroes? Or am I being stupid and not seeing them (quite possible).
 
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Andi Anonymous
Germany
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King Conan is listed as Amara The Lion
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Chris Shark
Germany
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Mad-Halfling wrote:
Thanks, that looks really useful.

Is that complete, or are you still assessing some of the other heroes? King Conan from the King's Pledge doesn't seem to be on there (unless Google is messing it up) nor do the add-on boxes heroes? Or am I being stupid and not seeing them (quite possible).

Complete is such a final term. The Point-balancing does need more testing and I'm not sure if it will fit for all the Scenarios. Especially the complex and two player ones. But I'll not give up now
I started out with the stuff I had in my Kings Pledge. I did not purchase all the addons. If you can provide the Stuff, I'll factor them in with pleasure. Link to some pictures of the Hero-sheets should be enough.

Abbath wrote:
King Conan is listed as Amara The Lion

I read that a lot around here. Let me ask a stupid question. King Conan and Amara are two different Conans aren't they? Amara is the name the south tribes gave to Conan in the time he was a pirate. But when Conan did conquer the crown of Aquilonia, he was no pirate anymore.
Am I wrong? I just started to delve deeper into the lore and cannot say for sure, but there is a passage in the "Red Citadell" I think, where Conan is already King and meets some tribal dude who calles him Amara the Lion.
Maybe you can shed some light on this
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Simon Croquet
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Amra the Lion is indeed a Conan version available in the King Pledge
King Conan is a (bearded) Conan version that comes from the Xavier Colette's Guest Box (along with a Bêlit)

edit: confusion comes from the fact that during the KS campaign, Amra the Lion was labeled "King Conan and his lion". I think they decided to change his name to avoid confusion with King Conan from the Xavier Colette's Guest box.
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Stephan Beal
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Shoum wrote:
King Conan is a (bearded) Conan version that comes from the Xavier Colette's Guest Box (along with a Bêlit)


Thankfully, though, that version of Bêlit has no beard.
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Robert Payne
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Thank you so much for putting this together. I took the info from the update and changed the original (I just liked the scheme). As soon as I opened the box and saw all of the heroes and weapons I knew that this would have to be done.
I can see you have put a lot of time into this, and for that I am grateful. I can't wait to try all of this out.
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Tyne Lasley
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Hey Man, Thanks for all the hard work and effort that went into this. I will definitely be using some of this for reference!
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Chris Shark
Germany
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You're welcome

Let me know if you ran in issues or something should be improved. I still testing things out by myself but some other perspective wont hurt.
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Sr Perro
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Thank for this Chris. I definitely will give it a try.

Just a question. Is the group point table right? I don't get why for a smaller number of players, heroes get a biger number of point to spend. Additionally, the amount of points doesn't fit with the scenarios for a big margin.

In the first one "Clutches of the Picts"

Conan (Battle Axe, Shield, Leather Armor) 17+6+2=25
Shevatas (Kris, Throwing Knives) 2+2=4
Hadrathus (Dagger, Teleport, Mitra's Halo, Lightning Storm) 1+1+6+18=26
Belit (Ornamental Lance) 10



The total for four heroes is 65 Vs 80 in your table. For three heroes is even worse 55 vs. 90.


Am I missing something?

Thanks

Edited to correct maths U_U
 
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Chris Shark
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Thanks for bringin this up. No, you're not missing something. Those sheets are WIP and therefore prone to issues

Since I utilize my group to test all those crazy sheets, I'd prefered to start out on a lower difficulty. Thats why I added 10 pts to all the averages I took from OL-book. If you want to be more closely to the average, substract 10-15 pts.

Since Monolith did not deliver a propper system to adjust player count, you have to dajust equip even more if you're goning to play a 5P with 3P. Imagine, five players do have 5 times gems to spend on actions and 5 times gems as HP. Three players do have only three times much. That means, in a scenario with a difficulty for five players, you have to buff up the heroes quite a bit.
Alternatively one could adjust OL-gem pool and regeneration to achieve this, but I think it would constrain the OLs options to much at a certain point. This is why I decided to give fewer players more points instead of adjusting OL-gems.
The two player option is balanced for scenariso where only the OL and one player/hero are involved in the scenario. Again if you want to be closer to the avarage score, substract 10 pts.

In time and with mor feedback, I think we can achive a more accurate pts. table. Be free to experiment with the seets and post what you did and hod it worked out
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Sr Perro
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Thanks for the answer, it makes sense. Maybe we can assign a cost in points to heroes. Something like 10 points for level 1, 12 points level 2 and 15 points level 3 or even 10 points per hero, whatever the level they are. This way, bigger the group of heroes, lower the amount of point they have to spend in equipment.


The other day, I played the tentacles mission from the KS extras (The thing from the swamp) and I used custom heroes

Conan the general | Conan's sword (11) + scale mail (6) = 17
Balthus + Slasher | Zingarian bow (6) + dagger (1) = 7
Savage Belit | Sword (10) + Parrying dagger (7) = 17

total 41 points.

The cost of the suggested heroes is 55.

I think it was quite balanced and fun. At the end, only Conan survived and rescued the princess, He needed to drop the sword to be able to carry her due to the encumbrance.

Comments:
-Scale mail should cost much more. I know that you put it as restricted only for difficulty 3 maps and this one is 2, but having a red die for passive defence makes the hero who wears it almost unbeatable for most of the minions. This was the most unbalanced point of the map
-Ranged weapon makes a big difference in the right hands. I would increase a bit the price of both bows
-Should the pets Slasher, Zelata's wolf or Conan's lion, have a cost in points? I have just played with Slasher and it is really fun an useful ally. Even with one point of life his mobility and 3 armour makes him a big tank against minions due to the sacrifice skill. The overlord needed to use a lot of gems to reroll and get 4 hits to kill him. In conclusion 10 points for him does not sound harebrained.

Hope this can be any useful.

regards,



 
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Stephan Beal
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SrPerro wrote:
-Should the pets Slasher, Zelata's wolf or Conan's lion, have a cost in points? I have just played with Slasher and it is really fun an useful ally. Even with one point of life his mobility and 3 armour makes him a big tank against minions due to the sacrifice skill...


This mention of movement reminds me of another example of why a point value system cannot work accurately for Conan. As a thought experiment: go read the scenario Facing the Serpent Specter (it's the 2nd scenario in the extra 4-scenario booklet), then try to apply any formula for Movement Point cost to the Snake.

Summary: point values are not simply unit-specific in Conan. They're scenario-specific as well. Each scenario is made up of many interconnected variables, and changing one can change the effective point value of any others in subtle or extreme ways. Good luck with that.
 
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Sr Perro
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You are right, create a perfect balanced point system for Conan could be almost imposible or at least quite complicated. However, the game by itself is not balanced. You just have to take a look of this thread.

As you can see, the point system that Battleshark suggests, only includes the Heroes, leaving Overlord forces untouched. Your snake point is not a big issue, at least at this state of the project. What I means is that most of the scenario exceptions to the rules: life point for monsters, number of unit per tile, the snake specter, the tentacles... only applies to the overlord. Avoiding to touch overlord side will made easier to create the point system.

Of course, the system won't be perfect and could made scenarios impossible to win. Just imagine playing hunting the tigress with heroes that cannot leap. Is there, when the players should evaluate if some combination is overpower or absurd.

In conclusion, I see this more like a nice exercise to help using all the KS extras than a try to create a perfect balanced system.

Regards
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