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The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Westfolf outrider question vs attacks rss

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wesley sermeus
Belgium
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Hi

Yesterday we played the morgule vale scenario with 4 player.
I like to clarify a rule. Is the following correct:
Player 1 has westfold outrider in play
Player 2 has some rnemies engaged with him.
During the combat phase shadow cards are added and revealed.
After revealing the shadow cards 1 enemy is boosted to 7 attack which should kill 1 of his defending heros.
But after the shadow cards are revealed he used the ability of westfold outrider and engages the 7 attack enemy .
What happens now?
The attack is canceled and nobody dies?
The new player now gets a 7 attack against him?
The attack targets player 2 first and is then moved towards player1.

Thx for the reply
 
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Robin Munn

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Re: Westfold Outrider question vs attacks
This situation is addressed in section 1.32 of the FAQ:

FAQ 1.32 wrote:
1.32 Mid-Attack Control or Engagement Change
If a card involved in combat changes control, is returned to the staging area, or engages another player during the resolution of an attack, that attack still resolves with the card still participating from its new state.


In other words, once the shadow card has been revealed, moving the attacking enemy to engage another player won't change the attack's target. The attack will still resolve against its original target, and the defending hero will take 7 attack (which, in this case, you've said would kill that hero). The next turn, assuming that enemy is still around, it will attack player 1 instead of player 2, since it's now engaged with player 1. But since its attack has already started to resolve, changing its engagement won't change the attack's target: it's too late for that.
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wesley sermeus
Belgium
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many thanks,

 
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wesley sermeus
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thx, so for example if you have a shadow card that has a shadow effect and reads: engages the next enemy and makes an immediate attack will this also mean that it makes two attacks instead of 1?
1 against the engaged player and after that against the next player with a new shadow card?
 
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Titus M
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It would. But hopefully a shadow effect with the intention to cause two attacks would start with some helping text a la "After this attack is resolved, the enemy engages the next player and makes an immediate attack."
 
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Dale Stephenson
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Buford
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Note that if player 1 had discarded Westfold Outrider to engage the enemy after all of player 1's attacks had taken place, but before this enemy's attack on player 2 had begun, the enemy never would have attacked at all.
 
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Dale Stephenson
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Buford
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Another point -- in the OP it talks about "During the combat phase shadow cards are added and revealed". That amounts sounds like they were all revealed at once. Here's how the order works with that:

1) At the beginning of the combat phase, shadow cards are added to all enemies (starting with the first player, in descending threat order, face down)

2) Each enemy is then dealt with individually, in player order. As part of dealing with each enemy, the shadow card is only revealed and resolved as step 3 of the attack resolution process, between "Declare defender" and "Determine combat damage". So barring a card that lets you see what the shadow card is, you wouldn't know that a particular enemy is boosted to seven attack until he had already begun his attack and a defender had already been declared.

You could discard Westfold Outrider between shadow resolution and determine combat damage, though as mentioned before that wouldn't stop the attack from proceeding against the original defender. However, you can certainly use this window to buff the defense of the original defender.

What I'm not sure about is whether you can interrupt the attack by eliminating the attacker in this action window (for example, by the newly engaged player using "Goblin-Cleaver" to cause 2-3 damage).
 
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wesley sermeus
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Quote:
Note that if player 1 had discarded Westfold Outrider to engage the enemy after all of player 1's attacks had taken place, but before this enemy's attack on player 2 had begun, the enemy never would have attacked at all.


So he has to trigger the action on westfold rider before step 1 of the combat phase starts. i don't think you can do it after you reveal the shadow card effect and then use the westfold outrider ability to take enemy with you before he finishes his attack.

 
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Dale Stephenson
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wezze wrote:
Quote:
Note that if player 1 had discarded Westfold Outrider to engage the enemy after all of player 1's attacks had taken place, but before this enemy's attack on player 2 had begun, the enemy never would have attacked at all.


So he has to trigger the action on westfold rider before step 1 of the combat phase starts. i don't think you can do it after you reveal the shadow card effect and then use the westfold outrider ability to take enemy with you before he finishes his attack.



You can use the ability because there's an action window, it just won't prevent the attack from finishing. Let's look at an example:

Player 1 is Gimli/Thalin/Eowyn. Engaged enemies are a King Spider and a Hummerhorn (Gimli survived the when-engaged effect due to Citadel Plate).
Gimli, a Gondorian Spearman, and a Westfold Outrider are ready; Gimli has one hp left and can attack for ten, the King Spider has 2 damage, and the Hummerhorn 1 (from Thalin)

Player 2 is Theodred/Denethor/Glorfindel. An Ungoliant's Spawn is engaged and has 1 damage (from Thalin). Only Denethor is ready.

The combat phase begins. Shadow cards are dealt face down to Hummerhorns, King Spider, and Ungoliant's Spawn, in that order.

Now the first player choses an engaged enemy, and choses the King Spider. Gondorian Spearman is chosen as the defender, which causes the final point of damage and makes the King Spider go away. Its shadow card is also discarded, unused.

The first player next choses the Westfold Outrider to defend against the Hummerhorns. The shadow card is revealed and has no effect. Because the Outrider has one defense, it takes only one damage and survives the attack.

All attacks against the first player have now been resolved, and it becomes the second player's job to select Ungoliant's Spawn and declare a defender. But the first player cleverly discards Westfold Outrider to engage Ungoliant's Spawn. Since the first player attacks are done, and since the second player has no engaged enemies, the "enemy attacks" portion of the combat phase is done. Gimli declares his attack against Ungoliant's Spawn, does the remaining 8 damage (10-2 defense), and kills the Spawn, its shadow card discarded unused.

The combat phase is now over, and the face-up shadow cards attached to Hummerhorns is discarded.

Suppose Player 1 hadn't thought to use Westfold Outrider before Ungoliant Spawn's attack, and Denethor was declared as the defender. The shadow card is revealed and gives +1 attack, which would kill Denethor. There is an action window before determining damage, and if either player had cards to reduce the spawn's attack or increase Denethor's defense, it could save him. Lacking such cards, Player 1 discard Westfold Outrider to engage Ungoliant's Spawn. Determining combat damage still occurs, and Denethor is killed. However, since the Spawn is now engaged with Player 1, Gimli can now kill it instead of the Hummerhorns.
 
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Tim Franklin
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dalestephenson wrote:

Suppose Player 1 hadn't thought to use Westfold Outrider before Ungoliant Spawn's attack, and Denethor was declared as the defender. The shadow card is revealed and gives +1 attack, which would kill Denethor. There is an action window before determining damage, and if either player had cards to reduce the spawn's attack or increase Denethor's defense, it could save him. Lacking such cards, Player 1 discard Westfold Outrider to engage Ungoliant's Spawn. Determining combat damage still occurs, and Denethor is killed. However, since the Spawn is now engaged with Player 1, Gimli can now kill it instead of the Hummerhorns.


Not until next turn though, meaning the Spawn gets another attack, right? Player 1's Combat Phase is already over...

Edit: left for clarification, but I'm wrong - apologies. The sequence is P1-defend, P2-defend, P1-attack, P2-attack. That's what comes of only playing solo.
 
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wesley sermeus
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thx dale for your example, so taken your example, if player 1 used westfold outrider his ability when player 2 enemy's are attacking, but before shadow cards are revealed, or even before declare defenders.
Does he engage the enemy then immmidiatly and that enemy's attack isn't resolved because player 1 enemy's attacks are already done and shadow cards aren't resolved.


If he uses his ability after the shadow cards are revealed but before determine damage, the enemy's attack is still resolved against player 2 and moves afterwards to player 1 ?

 
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Dale Stephenson
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wezze wrote:
thx dale for your example, so taken your example, if player 1 used westfold outrider his ability when player 2 enemy's are attacking, but before shadow cards are revealed, or even before declare defenders.
Does he engage the enemy then immmidiatly and that enemy's attack isn't resolved because player 1 enemy's attacks are already done and shadow cards aren't resolved.


Yes, shadow cards are only resolved as part of "resolving enemy attacks". Since this is done in player order, if you can get an enemy to engage a player who has already resolved attacks, you can "skip" the attack. You could also do it the other direction in theory -- after an enemy attacks player 1 (resolving his shadow card), you could use a card effect to have it engage player 2 in time to attack there as well.

Probably the most common way to use enemy engagement to avoid attacks is with Tactics Aragorn, who can engage an enemy after he destroys an enemy. If you use a card effect (like Quick Strike) to let him kill an enemy after he's already handled enemy attacks, he can still an enemy from a player who hasn't yet faced attacks.


Quote:
If he uses his ability after the shadow cards are revealed but before determine damage, the enemy's attack is still resolved against player 2 and moves afterwards to player 1 ?


Technically he would move immediately to player one, but that doesn't prevent the "determine combat damage" step of the attack already in progress. I *think* you can interrupt the attack already in progress by killing the enemy between "resolve shadow effect" and "determine combat damage", but I may be wrong on that point (I can't point to any rules justification for it, but also think that killing an enemy really ought to cancel an attack in progress. Seems fair turn about for a defender being killed before "determine combat damage" causing an undefended attack.)
 
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