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Julian Dick
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Here we go again....
As it turns out Conan is another kickstarter game of a new design team / publisher that has a really terrible rulebook, lots of unclear und badly translated rules, misprints on game components and probably was not tested enough by blind beta-testers. Also, all the unlocked kickstarter stretchgoals like extra characters, items, spells and tokens can not be used as of now, because the scenarios that come with the game all use fixed characters with fixed items and spells and fixed enemies. Furthermore, the scenarios are for a fixed number of players, mostly 4. You don't have many options right now if you only want to play a scenario with 2, 3 or 5 people.

Why are these faults made over and over again? Do new designers / publishers not learn from ks projects like Myth etc.?
How is it possible that only when the first backers receive their game and write bad critics or write emails full of rules questions to the designer that they suddenly realise that their rulebook is really lacking and badly translated? See also Update 170.

I know that it is not easy to make a proffesional board game on the first try, but there is so much to learn from errors that were made before, there are so many people/designers to ask for advice and it is really not that difficult to let lots of blind beta testers play the game and follow their suggestions and advise to write a comprehensive and complete rulebook. Also, it seemed that Monolith was comprised of veteran boardgame designers and people who had some experience in the industry.

The Conan Kickstarter campaign looked really promising and professional (aside from the major delay, which was not completely their fault). As it turns out, it is really hard to evaluate if a boardgame kickstarter end product will be of a good/professional quality no matter how good the campaign seems to be.

Why do they give us the extra stretch goal contens now, if we can not use them? Better give out only the base game with complete scenarios and send out wave 2 with the extra stuff and matching scenarios that can use all that extra stuff.

I am really exited what they will do with the rulebook 2.0 when it is released. It seems that there are also some errors in the scenario book and on the character sheets and I fear they will not be redone as easily even though they should be as well. We will see!
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Jack
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Re: Conan: Another one of those Kickstarter games that got too few playtesting, misprints, translation errors and a bad rulebook.
I have no desire to wait around for an updated rulebook. This smells like the second coming of Myth to me. I managed to dump that one and this one will be headed to the marketplace as well as soon as it comes in. It's shameful that with pulling in $3.3 million, they couldn't find a reliable translator. No excuse...at all.
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Lester Festertester
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Re: Conan: Another one of those Kickstarter games that got too few playtesting, misprints, translation errors and a bad rulebook.
I dont care
I will still triple my money on ebay.
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Julian Dick
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Re: Conan: Another one of those Kickstarter games that got too few playtesting, misprints, translation errors and a bad rulebook.
Quote:
This smells like the second coming of Myth to me

As far as I know, the state that Conan currently is in, is not really comparable to Myth 1.0. I think that one was near unplayable when it first came out. Conan can be played and understood for the most part, but there are just a lot of little things that are not clear, not explained in the rulebook at all or misprinted/mistranslated. Maybe with the new rulebook it will be acceptable, and if it comes out in the near future, it will be ok. We just have to wait and see and do some house ruling in the meantime.
I just wanted to express that I really can not understand why they are doing the same mistakes again that have been demonstrated by so many kickstarter games that came before.
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Mike Malley
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Re: Conan: Another one of those Kickstarter games that got too few playtesting, misprints, translation errors and a bad rulebook.
What game components have misprints? I hadn't caught wind of that yet.
 
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Mathue Faulk
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Re: Conan: Another one of those Kickstarter games that got too few playtesting, misprints, translation errors and a bad rulebook.
I love Myth...favorite dungeon crawler out there....but I understand the critics.

I don't see this being quite the same.

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Eduardo Guimarães
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Re: Conan: Another one of those Kickstarter games that got too few playtesting, misprints, translation errors and a bad rulebook.
Can't fully agree with you. Received mine and got a few plays in already. The rulebook and scenarios really deserve a rewrite because translation errors are abundant, and it's really a shame, but they are working to make this right. It's no small problem, i know, but outside that, gameplay is really good, the scenarios appears to be really well balanced and fun, so the few playtesting complain is not deserving. In the end, my opinion is that the game is worth the work to go through the rulebook.
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that Matt
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Re: Conan: Another one of those Kickstarter games that got too few playtesting, misprints, translation errors and a bad rulebook.
Enroth186 wrote:
Why are these faults made over and over again?

Because people keep dumping wheelbarrows full of cash on these untested but shiny-looking projects... over and over again.
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Martin Gallo
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Re: Conan: Another one of those Kickstarter games that got too few playtesting, misprints, translation errors and a bad rulebook.
It is my expectation that the re-writes will be available before my copy arrives. Win-win.

It would be great if the rules, scenarios and gameplay could have been reviewed while the manufacturing set up was being accomplished, though. Seems like a wasted year. Of course, the rules were available for review for quite a while...
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The Game Steward
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Re: Conan: Another one of those Kickstarter games that got too few playtesting, misprints, translation errors and a bad rulebook.
I don't have a copy of the game in hand, so I can't speak to the actual faults of the rulebook and overall quality of the game. But considering that Asmodee is involved in this project, I don't think it can be fully compared to other first time Kickstarter projects.

What seems likely is that Asmodee will make efforts to ensure the continued retail viability of this property. There's a lot of potential money at stake on this IP. I'm pretty sure they are willing to invest a bit to make sure it sells at retail for years to come.
 
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Nicholas
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Re: Conan: Another one of those Kickstarter games that got too few playtesting, misprints, translation errors and a bad rulebook.
I didn't back the Kickstarter and therefore do not have any emotional ties to this game at all.

I read the rulebook today, in preparation of a game tomorrow. This rulebook is one of the worst I've read so far. It's not that the game is complicated (it's definitly not), but the whole structure of the rules is horrible and leaves room for a lot of loopholes.

The common problem with Kickstarter games rules is that many designer/producer think: "Hey, it's only the rules, I can easily write/translate this! No need to pay someone for this!" Unfortunately, this is far from the truth, but nonetheless this error is repeated again and again.
As a rule of thumb, the smaller the publisher and the more focus on minis, the worse the rules tend to be.

As for the other concerns raised by the OP, I don't have any opinion yet, as I have neither seen nor played the game so far.

Thankfully, the game itself seems to be fun, if one can overlook the poor rules.
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Stephan Beal
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Re: Conan: Another one of those Kickstarter games that got too few playtesting, misprints, translation errors and a bad rulebook.
caffeinehead wrote:
What game components have misprints? I hadn't caught wind of that yet.


e.g.

1) Many (all?) of the tiles from add-ons incorrectly use a "dodge" icon instead of an "armor" icon.

2) Many of the skills are sorely mistranslated in the English edition. Wall Wrecker has two separate mistranslations which make it much more powerful in English. (It leaves out the word "wooden" before "wall" and it incorrectly says that breaking a wall and moving through it costs 2 MP instead of 2 _additional_ MP.)

3) The Counterattack and Attack from Beyond skills both incorrectly say "unarmed" attack, where "unarmed" is a keyword which provides a -2 attack penalty which does _not_ apply to these skills.

4) A long list of omissions and mistranslations in the scenarios.

etc...

That said, IMO the core rules themselves are reasonably good (could use a bit of clarification here and there, but nothing nearly as tragic as the numerous, completely inexplicable mistranslations).
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Lorenzo
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Re: Conan: Another one of those Kickstarter games that got too few playtesting, misprints, translation errors and a bad rulebook.
Card comparison English/French

http://www.goblins.net/phpBB3/conan-monolith-t89414.html

...in the English card missing part of the rules.
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Sebastian Elliker
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Re: Conan: Another one of those Kickstarter games that got too few playtesting, misprints, translation errors and a bad rulebook.
As much as I hate the rulebook, the game itself has been playtested quite a lot (at least as far as i can remember). I would argue the game itself works well, but the editorial work has been really bad. Thus, I am wondering whether you would care to elaborate as to why you think the game was not playtested? Otherwise, it seems that the title of this thread is clearly misleading.

Remember the amount of playtesting for a game has nothing to do with misprints, translation errors, and the quality of the rulebook.

I just had an idea and don't have time to post a thread right now: IF Monolith really wanted to get some positive press about these mishaps, they might change the Artbook / Sceenario book to include ALL rules and ALL scenarios (like the collector's edition book of the Siege of the Citadel KS).
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Anders Olin
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Re: Conan: Another one of those Kickstarter games that got too few playtesting, misprints, translation errors and a bad rulebook.
wooow wrote:
Card comparison English/French

http://www.goblins.net/phpBB3/conan-monolith-t89414.html

...in the English card missing part of the rules.


It seems like they said: "Oh, we save the other the part to later" [later] oh man, it already went to the printers blush
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Stephan Beal
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Re: Conan: Another one of those Kickstarter games that got too few playtesting, misprints, translation errors and a bad rulebook.
LovingAngel wrote:
As much as I hate the rulebook, the game itself has been playtested quite a lot (at least as far as i can remember). I would argue the game itself works well, but the editorial work has been really bad. Thus, I am wondering whether you would care to elaborate as to why you think the game was not playtested? Otherwise, it seems that the title of this thread is clearly misleading.


It obviously wasn't blind playtested - that is, by people who didn't already know the game. If it was, the playtesters only played a single session of one particular scenario (likely the first one, where most of them likely mis-played the Wall Wrecker skills). Alternately, it was blind playtested only in its native language, and not in English.


LovingAngel wrote:
Remember the amount of playtesting for a game has nothing to do with misprints, translation errors, and the quality of the rulebook.


Quite the contrary - "final" playtesting should have been done with the "final" rules, and that obviously either didn't happen or the testers didn't make even the slightest of effort to look at it with critical eyes (at least in the English edition).

FWIW: i agree completely that the core rules are, by and large, okay (and i love the mechanics). The sheer number of completely inexplicable translation errors, however, is... well... facepalm.
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Sven Van Roeyen
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Re: Conan: Another one of those Kickstarter games that got too few playtesting, misprints, translation errors and a bad rulebook.
Wasnt it mentioned in one of the updates that Fantasy Flight Games was involved in creating the rulebook? I sure cant see their involvement in these rulebooks.

The game has potential but the rulebooks are a joke at the moment. And looking at the example of the spellcard above, the other printed materials are lacking as well.
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Simone Ferrari
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Re: Conan: Another one of those Kickstarter games that got too few playtesting, misprints, translation errors and a bad rulebook.
I noticed there were translation's problems when checking the movement rules in either the English rulebook and in the French one.

The French rulebook had the movement (i.e. the move action) rules crystal clear, where the English rulebook made a mess.

I regret to have bought an English copy of my King pledge. From now on if the game has a native French language, I'll buy that.
 
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Re: Conan: Another one of those Kickstarter games that got too few playtesting, misprints, translation errors and a bad rulebook.
wooow wrote:
Card comparison English/French

http://www.goblins.net/phpBB3/conan-monolith-t89414.html

...in the English card missing part of the rules.


In fact the english card says all you need to know, you just have to do what's on the card without asking questions.

So pay the price of the spell and do exactly what's on the text.
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François Mahieu
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Re: Conan: Another one of those Kickstarter games that got too few playtesting, misprints, translation errors and a bad rulebook.
sgbeal wrote:

That said, IMO the core rules themselves are reasonably good (could use a bit of clarification here and there, but nothing nearly as tragic as the numerous, completely inexplicable mistranslations).


I totally agree with this. The game is totally enjoyable as such. It's a pretty good miniature game actually. One of the best in its category.
Though I bought the english version of the game, but it appears the french version is way better (regarding translations/explanations). Let's see how they'll correct this.
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Mad Halfling
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Re: Conan: Another one of those Kickstarter games that got too few playtesting, misprints, translation errors and a bad rulebook.
I also don't think the rulebook is as terrible as people are making out, however it's not good enough and it's pretty inexcusable that it was released in its current state. And the translation errors and missing information in the English version is equally bad. This team, though a new team, was purported to be made up of experienced designers so I struggle to see how this has happened. I wonder if the focus shifted to their next project too much.
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Brain Less
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Re: Conan: Another one of those Kickstarter games that got too few playtesting, misprints, translation errors and a bad rulebook.
Thanks Guys, I now know I made the right decision, I bought it in French
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Julian Dick
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Re: Conan: Another one of those Kickstarter games that got too few playtesting, misprints, translation errors and a bad rulebook.
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Remember the amount of playtesting for a game has nothing to do with misprints, translation errors, and the quality of the rulebook.


For me, playtesting does not only mean that the designer and his friends play the game as often as possible to get the numbers and the balancing right. It also means blind testing of people who have never played the game before. You give them the current version of the rulebook, and they start to learn the rules from them and try to play the game. Then you observe their errors and problems and they give you a detailed report what issues they had. If they yould have done that with the current rulebook, they would surely have recognized the incomplete and confusing state the rulebook is in, and would not have been surprised by the first backers who got the game who had problems learning and playing the game, which let to the kickstarter Update 170: Improving the rules.
That is what I meant by "not enough playtested".
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I read the rules yesterday, and while the rulebook certainly could have been better, I thought it was okay. At least I think I am ready to play the game, although that is probably influenced by the fact that I followed the campagin and some reviews.
What worries me more is that the game seems to have very little substance.
 
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Stephan Beal
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Skippy668 wrote:
What worries me more is that the game seems to have very little substance.


In what regard(s)?

e.g. Not enough content? Not thematic enough? Something different?
 
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