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Falling Sky: The Gallic Revolt Against Caesar» Forums » General

Subject: I WANT ........ but ....... rss

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michael humphreys
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Bridgeton
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I want either this or Liberty or Death.... or.... neither...
I so love the sounds of these... I have never played a COIN...
I like complex things but I likely have never played THIS complex.
I like Twilight Struggle, Tzolkin, Puerto Rico, Polis, Roll t t Galaxy, Robinson C, Goa, Merchant Marauders, Eclipse, and I have but not played (but thought I could handle) Conflict of Herors AtB, and Napoleons Triumph.
Sooo, I dunno.... Should I get one of these and which one if so?
I am also a good bit disturbed/concerned by a game that is out less than a year but has over 300 Rules posts/questions here on the forums already.
Is it that obtuse? Thanks for any help. I cross post onto LoD.
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Joshua Hammack
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First does the subject matter interest you? COIN is a little bit more complex then twilight struggle.

Revolt will be easier then Liberty but if the subject matter of American Revolution you may lead that way.

Also will you consistently have 4 players? Are you okay playing using a bot or okay with someone playing with two sides?

I love Cuba Libre, which is a COIN game. I studied the Cuban Revolution so I was already interested. I mostly solo it. For that game most questions of rules come from soloing the game.
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michael humphreys
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Thanks Joshua. I would say I am more interested in the Amer Rev... so that leads me to LD... but I heard FS may be slightly easier to learn too... and I like that time period as well....
No. I cannot guarantee 4 players (although certainly at times) and I would be highly unlikely to ever play solo.
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The Mirror
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They are both great games. I personally feel like Falling Sky is the most streamlined in terms of rules, and it seems to have the fewest errata and rules issues of the bunch, that said if you're motivated (and have a pretty big table, Liberty or Death is also a great game and if the theme will feel more immersive then go for LoD. I'd say in terms of rules level game difficulty you can think of it as learning Twilight Struggle and Robinson Crusoe in one game. The elegance (though war-gammy) aspects of TS but some initial fiddliness of RC.

As a recent COIN convert, I'd say definitely go for it.
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Joshua Hammack
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FS is more easier to learn then LoD but again depends what you are interested in.

Just so you know for COIN games there is always 4 factions present. So bots which is a flow chart/ if then statements will be in the game. This leads to rules questions. If you play less then 4 players one person will play two factions. The rules will tell you what factions play with each other.
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P. Fowler
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Buy either if:
- You love the theme enough to slog through a medium-heavy rulebook. If the theme is strong enough (either ancient Gaul or AmRev), then there shouldn't be much to dissuade you from giving it enough effort.
- You're ok with the time frame. It's probably 3 hours minimum for either game's short scenarios. (More if it's everyone's first time.) If you don't have the time for this or to play it in batches then you may not want to get it.
- Your game group has a good mix of negotiating skills and strategic planning. There's a lot of both in all of the COIN games. Sometimes it's more strategy (Falling Sky or Liberty or Death) and sometimes you need more of a silver tongue (Andean Abyss or A Distant Plain). But you'll miss a lot if you either go in looking for the optimum moves without table talk or you can't plan well enough ahead.

Now, either game is good for a starting game. However, LoD runs closer to how the other games in the series do, but it plays like more of a team game. Falling Sky is more compact and fighty, but getting discouraged is a lot easier. Also, battling is an effort in both games. (LoD requires some calculations, while FS follows a procedure based on certain conditions and choices.)

Honestly, they're great games. But if you can't get with any of those reasons above, you might be better off finding someone who already owns one of these and checking it out first (or playing over VASSAL, if you teach yourself via rules on GMT's website.)
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Rodger Samuel
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It seems to me that your disinterest in solo play makes either of these a decent choice [altho Falling Sky is bit easier]. My impression is that the vast majority of rules questions have to do with how to interpret the instructions for the bots. If you have four players--or one or two players taking two sides if there are less than four players--then the rules for the bots are completely irrelevant.

Other than the bot rules, I don't think that the game itself is that complicated. As I get older, I have less interest in overly complex games, but the COIN system is easy enough for me to grasp that I'm more than happy to play it.
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Scott Key
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I LOVE the 4 COIN games I have played but you might want to divert to something a bit different (if you're looking for American Revolution) and get Washington's War. It's a true masterpiece and would make a good intermediate transition from Twilight Struggle to something more baroque such as COIN.

As for COIN I would recommend Cuba LIbre as the best game to learn the system (and the best COIN game in my opinion) but Liberty or Death is my second favorite. Currently
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Jim Williams
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As I stated in your Liberty or Death cross-post, I was able to setup the play-through for both Fire in the Lake and Liberty or Death and take off from there, referencing the rules as they came up. I suspect Falling Sky is much the same.

The bots are really awesome for learning play. Follow the flow chart, look up the specific action required of the bot flow chart, and repeat.
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Adam Parker
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If you know the word "obtuse", Falling Sky has been made for you.

Says it right in the marketing blurb: "Perfect for people with high level nouns and dog lovers."
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michael humphreys
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Adam Parker wrote:
If you know the word "obtuse", Falling Sky has been made for you.

Says it right in the marketing blurb: "Perfect for people with high level nouns and dog lovers."


So Obtuse... Meaning hard to Grok... Meaning lots of little moving parts and exceptions to exceptions (?).. Not sure I could or would have enough opportunities to get this to the table with those characteristics...
More so than the other COINS? I was beginning to thin it was more streamlined....
 
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Adam Parker
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Hi Michael, so not to waste time best thing would be to download the rules and spend a day with them; read some reviews and ask some specific questions.

Your conclusion of “obtuseness” by post count is misleading (syntactically iffy too). Rather, read them and see what’s in them.

At the bottom of my review (in the review section here), someone asked me to rank COIN’s titles. Hope that helps you too.

“Abstruse” is a slightly better adjective for your sentiment. “Complex” would be better.

Yet, Volko has gone to great and overt pains to make Falling Sky the cleanest series title I’ve played—and bar LoD—that’s them all. I found it a breeze to play, as you’ll read. Complex, Falling Sky is certainly not.
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michael humphreys
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Sorry.. I misread your use of Obtuse to be YOUR interpretation... Not as a quote of my original (I forgot I used the word)....
But I have read and watched all the reviews (NOT all the forum posts... with all the Rules Posts questioning leading me to interpret it being Obtuse (correctly used in my view) to mean difficult to understand... If there were all those Rules interpretation questions....
(Not sure how you mean my Syntax is off)
Thanks for the help however.. I will go back to read thru your review...
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Ricardo Dubcek
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Hi there. I absolutely love Twilight Struggle and Merchants and marauders to reference some of the games you mentioned. M&M is all about exceptions to exceptions and small rules (with cards, complex battles and so on) but not a complicated game overall IMHO. Falling sky is more like Twilight Struggle in the sense not only that it’s asymmetrical but also because it takes a few plays to fully understand. The rules may seem a bit overwhelming at first sight but are OK’ish after those first two plays. It’s also quite flexible with the number of players: 1 to 4 all play well, be it with bots or with someone taking two sides. The bots are tricky but fun and the game has been thought out to balance things if someone takes two sides: as they probably would not hinder each other, you simply have to win with both. So a lot of thought has gone into these aspects (and all others), I am really in love with the game :-)

That said, I suggest you read some reviews (there are some really good ones here in BGG, go for some of the most highly rated), have a look at the rules and see if you can try it out before you buy it. Personally, I didn’t know anybody who had it, so even though I was initially more interested in Fire in the lake, having heard FS was simpler I went for it (after the rules, reviews, blablabla) and here I am. Only trouble is playtime, as some have said it takes quite a while (definitely more than 3 hours for the short scenario when it’s somebody’s first game).

Enjoy!
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