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Vinhos Deluxe Edition» Forums » Rules

Subject: 2016 Maintenance - how many barrels? rss

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Euan D
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Page 13 of the 2016 rulebook says "must take one", whereas page 2 says "must take at least one".

Page 2 implies you can take more than one but page 13 states implicitly 1 barrel. How many can you take?
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Alan Castree
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I'm quite certain it's only one barrel. "At least one" is a little confusing but I think it was written this way to imply you can't take zero.

Also, p13 is the official page for maintance rules so I'd go by that rather than the summary page.
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James J

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My understanding was that you "take one barrel, if able". So you can't take zero (if there are any), and you can't take more than one.

EDIT: Wrong! See below.

EDIT EDIT: Right! The designer has reversed his correction. It is "just one barrel".
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Richard
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EDIT: Nevermind, see below
 
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Vital Lacerda
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You must take at least one barrel if you have any on the sales stablishments. You may take more than one.

I'm wrong in this, the rulebook rule on pag 13, player aids and Paul's video are correct. This is the rule on page 2 that
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Alan Castree
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newrev wrote:
You must take at least one barrel if you have any on the sales stablishments. You may take more than one.


Oh man! Been playing it all wrong! Thanks for setting us straight Mr. Lacerda
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Lawrence
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newrev wrote:
You must take at least one barrel if you have any on the sales stablishments. You may take more than one.


Wow. We'd been playing that wrong this entire time, only taking 1 per maintenance phase. Thanks for the clarification!
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Euan D
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Thanks Vital.
 
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Joel Oakley
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Brandon
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mavericklancer wrote:
newrev wrote:
You must take at least one barrel if you have any on the sales stablishments. You may take more than one.


Wow. We'd been playing that wrong this entire time, only taking 1 per maintenance phase. Thanks for the clarification!


Definitely a needed clarification.
 
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James J

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Ditto. Glad to have the clarification. Looking back, I think I got it wrong due to Paul's (otherwise excellent) instructional video.

The section in question is here:
https://youtu.be/VoX0FLDtPBM?t=16m45s

The exact quote is, "Each player must take back one of their barrels from the sales area, if they have one." And it shows the purple player only taking one barrel back, while leaving another (which I imagine is very rarely done since it doesn't help you sitting there except to block another sale). Perhaps Paul can annotate the video to point out you can remove more thane one barrel, too?
 
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Mike DePasquale
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newrev wrote:
You must take at least one barrel if you have any on the sales stablishments. You may take more than one.


So just as in the Solo Rules in regards to the final action.... Lacerda shows mercy! Glad to know that we get all of the barrels and not just one. I played in the way that I pulled all of them back, so I'm just happy I played correctly. Beautiful game!
 
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Vital Lacerda
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indianajo883 wrote:
So just as in the Solo Rules in regards to the final action.... Lacerda shows mercy!

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Alex Singh
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Thanks for the clarification. I was also playing incorrectly.

Just curious, what does this represent thematically? If I must take back one barrel, I take it as the establishments have used up my wine and they are willing to get more of it. If I can choose to take back multiple barrels does this mean that they are using up more wine and I am somehow deciding how much?
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James J

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Yeah, I would also like to hear a bit more about this, as I find it confusing. When we could only remove one barrel, it put a limit on our sales as selling more than one barrel per action meant I didn't have access to one of those barrels for at least two turns. If I can take them all back at once, it removes that limit. (Even the 2010 version limits you by limiting it to pairs removed from the same establishments.) Is there any benefit at all to leaving a barrel in the sales area, except to block someone else from using that spot?

Definitely not game-breaking, no matter how it's played. But I am curious to hear Vital's thoughts.
 
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Alan Castree
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If you only remove one barrel per maintance, I could imagine money getting somewhat frustratingly tight in a 3-4 player game. Wasn't too big of a deal in 2 player honestly. Made taking endgame multipliers a more difficult decision which was kind of cool. "Should I take that multiplier or save my barrel to sell something next year... hmm do need some cash."
 
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Vital Lacerda
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In 2016 version, barrels are limited. If the player fails to take barrels from the managers, he will have problems all the way. In 2010 you could take any 2 barrels, any time you want. And you had the advantage to place renown cubes in 2 regions. Here you are only allowed to take those barrels during the maintenance and no cubes.

Edit: The above reason was valid in an early playtesting version. But is not correct by the written rules.
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James J

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Thank you, Vital.
 
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-=::) Dante (::=-
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japester1 wrote:
Ditto. Glad to have the clarification. Looking back, I think I got it wrong due to Paul's (otherwise excellent) instructional video.


It's most definitely not just because of the video but due to mistakes in the rulebook AND the player aids. yuk

We never watched Paul's video but got this wrong, I'm sure for the same reason he did, due to the wording on page 13 which states:

"Each player must take one of her barrls from the Sales Area, if she has any there, and return to her supply on her player board".

Nothing about that statement even hints at being able to take more than one back.

Worse, the phrasing on the player aid defines maintenance this way:

"Take one barrel of your color from a single establishment".

This is explicitly saying you can only take a single barrel!

The only place there is any suggestion of taking more than one back is in the summary on page 2 where it does say "at least one barrel".

Game still plays great regardless but we just taught a ton of players this the wrong way at multiple events due to the errata. soblue



As far as taking more than one back Vital, with barrels being so incredibly valuable and scarce I'm curious as to how often you've ever left barrels behind in your games?

Sure I can dream up a super rare situational scenario where in the final actions you know you're going for magnate tiles rewarding filled estates (so taking the Winery and Vineyard actions) AND also have the multiplier for wines left in your estates so you're less inclined to let one go for another magnate tile AND another player is going for Money bonuses so you want to block a few selling spots...

But all of that said:

- Early game barrels are invaluable to gain much needed money
- Late game barrels are incredibly valuable since most magnate tiles are worth more points than denying someone at most a buck or two by blocking a couple of spots in the local sales market.

So I'm having a hard time imagining situations coming up with any regularity where the optimal move would ever actually be leaving any behind, and wonder if it wouldn't have been easier to just have the rule be "Take back all your barrels from the Sales Area".

That said, I'm all for having my eyes opened! If there's anything I've learned playing your games Vital, is that there are often delicious hidden depths that are not immediately apparent! thumbsup
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Vital Lacerda
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Guys,
I'm very sorry for this to happen. I just made a great confusion about this rule, due early playtesting versions and because of the mistake on page 2 who says that you may take at least one barrel.
I review my notes and talk with a few playtesters about this, and the rule on 2016 player aids, rulebook, and Pauls Video is CORRECT. I'm the wrogn one here.

During maintenance, you can only take one barrel from one establishment.

I was confused because in an early version of 2016 players could only take barrels after the fairs. And then in a following version, playes could take any barrels from any establishments at any time. But then I wanted to make the game a bit more tied, and change it to at the end of the year before production you can take only one barrel from the establishments.

You are totally right, there are no reasons to leave the barrels there unless to block a space.


Please accept my apologies. I'm so into Lisboa right now, that I mess things up in the forum and make this huge confusion. I will try to place this in every thread to remake my mistake. And probably shut my mouth.

Players who don't want to play the game so tied can take more than one barrel, as a variant, but the rules are consistent and correct in the rulebooks, player aids and Paul's video.

Really sorry.
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Mike DePasquale
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Eeeek Lacerda does not have mercy on us!!!! Glad to know how you intended the game to play though. I'd prefer to play it the way it was designed. This is my first game designed by you. It takes a lot to admit fault and I admire that you came back in to give this update. Thank you!
 
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Vital Lacerda
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Thank you Mike.
I already open a thread apologizing and correcting my mistake.
People will kill me anyway.
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-=::) Dante (::=-
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newrev wrote:
Thank you Mike.
I already open a thread apologizing and correcting my mistake.
People will kill me anyway.


Are you kidding? We appreciate you SO much Vital! Not only do we love your games, we are so grateful for how much you contribute here in the forums. There are precious few designers who spend as much time as you do answering questions about their rules.

I think you're confusing us for mechanics in your games. We're much more forgiving.
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