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Tanks: Panther vs Sherman» Forums » General

Subject: I must have got something wrong, or this game is really bad. rss

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Jan Horinek
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I've played the game today with my friend and it was very disappointing. The tanks don't move - they teleport, their future position after movement or two is just unpredictable.
I either got the movement rules wrong or i have no idea how this game could possibly collect 7.8.
Is that correct that you can do a straight-to-the-side movement with a tank? My experience tells me that you can do such a thing with a shopping cart. Is that correct that i can turn a tank 180 deg any time i move it?

I don't wanna be a sourpuss i just wanna know where the fun lies. I am far from a grognard, i love Wings of Glory and such ...
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Hugh G. Rection
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Watch the Beasts of War Let's Play video. It will verify how silly the rules are.
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Jan Horinek
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I watched the video. The thing is the guys move the tanks in realistic manner, so they don't show what are those tanks really capable of.

These are examples of legal moves in the game, unless i am wrong.
 
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Jared Voshall
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While I don't think the first example is legal (IIRC, you have to place the tank at the end of the measuring stick), the second definitely is legal (and just as silly as you suggest). Though, to make it even sillier, you could set it up to move straight horizontal with minimal vertical movement.

In the end, this is intended to be a beer and pretzels style of miniatures game, focused on easy to learn rules and smooth gameplay over simulating tank combat. I think it works great for the former - but I definitely understand those looking for the latter being thoroughly disappointed.
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Jan Horinek
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Jared, i understand this is not a complex game. It is far from simulation. However it still could have been a fun game not for the insane movement rules. The other rules are great and well delivered.

I believe the first example is correct, you can place the tank anywhere along the arrow, as far as it is flat square on it.

This is a little example of sheer insanity. The inner circle shows where the tank can be next turn using speed 2 and less. The bigger circle is for speed 3 and less. Anywhere in the circle. And they shoot 360 deg. Wow.

 
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Jared Voshall
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Oh, I definitely get that. But, these are about as simple of movement rules as you can get. The up side, you only have a few rules to keep in mind (place the template, then place the tank, and finally up your Movement token by 1). In the neutral category, it certainly does not make for a realistic movement system - for some, this will not be a problem, and for others it will be a game killer. Finally, the downside is that it does allow for some very gamey moves, where a player can fairly easily make a net 0 move (if you have a good cover setup, for example).
 
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Crazy Fella
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House rule the movement.

I would make a tactical repositioning (i.e. a stationary 180 or 90) cost a move, or maybe one move per 45 degrees? For reverse movement start the movement stick from the front of the tank.

For that matter say the stick must always start from the front of the tank, and if you are turning in any direction you must set the movement stick in a manner that crosses the tank in order to turn (in a manner similar to Pirates of the Spanish Main)

Just ideas.
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Andrew Haught
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The movement in the game is not based on a TANKS top speed on open terrain and instead reflects their tactical speed.

What do I mean by this, when a tank moving through open terrain and is not worrying about combat the tank would move a lot faster than they do in the game. The game is focusing a tanks speed to move and still be able to turn quickly, rotate and most importantly shoot.

If you look how far your tanks actually move when comparing ground covered and the scale of your tank, you see that it does not move that far.

Being able to move sideways on the arrow does not mean your tank teleports it is more that it rotates, moves and then rotates to face the desired direction. We just took this needless complexity out of the game and just let players place their tank in its final position, but feel free to move the tank along the path it would need to complete this movement in your game.
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Jan Horinek
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Thank you for your answer Andrew. I can't really see much tactics to say at least. You basically place the tank somewhere in the circle and it will shoot 360 deg. How do you want to outsmart your opponent?

I was left with one Sherman in the game and my opponent had a Patntzer. He was always able to shoot me to the side and i was taking one defense dice away by my ability. We haven't finish, it didn't feel like a game.

You can jump behind a building or woods, he can either follow or not. So in the end you both shoot or you both have no LOS.
I will try again with more tanks.

I mean i really like the shooting rules, they are clever and simple. I was also extremely pleased with what i found in the box.
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Lance
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Like most 'introductory' games of this type the base set is enough for the rules and a simple play but you really do need to get some more units on the table for the fun to come out more.

1 v 1 is boring in this game because there is no way to out-smart your opponent and you can always shoot. It's even worse for the player with the lower initiative. Add more tanks though and the game becomes about trying to move and protect flanks while getting good shots at your opponent.

I agree the base rules seem silly and do allow some 'gamey' situations (move 2 without shifting from your starting spot for example, maybe the tank was just doing lots of doughnuts in the dirt). While these could be a killer for serious tournament play when you figure the total amount of abstractions that go into the game it isn't much more of a stretch to abstract out the details of the movement not being important compared to where it ends up (as Andrew mentioned above) and provide for a fun game.
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Boardgamegeneral BGG
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Hi Jan,

If you look at the arrow that regulates the movement as a direct movement path (like literally how the tank moves), then you are right.

However, that is not how I interpret this. I think it's just meant to be a start and end point of movement, for not going through all kinds of rules for turning, driving backwards etc...It simplifies things. It takes some getting used to as you appeart o be driving straigh through corners of buildings etc...which doesn't make sense...UNLESS you think of it as a starting position and ending position.

Tactics in a 1 tanks vs 1 tank game are non existant...that is not the way the game is meant to be played. There are subtle differences in intiative when using multiple tanks for example, so 1 tank can cover another's flank.

We found that we kept coming up with more detailed battle plans and different tactics each battle.

while we all agree that it's not Advanced Squad Leader with miniatures, there is a surpring amount of tactics in there.

we also found it made a big difference whether you use Objective points or not.

Also...it's usually true that either 2 tanks can see each other or not. However, 1 tank can be in cover, while the other is not. When using Stugs and Jagdpanthers for example, there is already a different twist to the field of fire.

There is a lot in there...but just playing a single 1 tank vs 1 tank game could indeed lead you to feeloing you have. I had the same when I played X-wing for the first time (1 fighter versus 1 fighter).

Kind regards,

Tom
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DaveB
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Tom,
Whilst I doubt I'll ever like the game, yours is the first post defending it, that has given me pause for thought. i.e. its not a movement arrow but a reposition distance?
Presumably then you can reposition through other tanks including enemy?
Do you think it would consequently make the game worse if it included simple turn penalties, as suggested above, by reducing this freedom of reposition?
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Boardgamegeneral BGG
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Hi Dave,

Yes, you can "arrow move" though object, including tanks. You cannot, however, stop your tank touching/on top of

Keep in mind that, in reality, everything is moving at once. Naturally, you would not be "driving through" an enemy tank or building. It's just a way of bstracting the movement.

I do not feel that adding rules would make the game worse at all. It would make it less fast and less "easy to learn" though.

When looking for a tank simulation game that goes into detail, this game does not aim to do that. There is always some abstracting...consider that one would write rules for driving around an enemy tank, planning all kinds of manoeuvres, while in reality the enemy tank would itself not stand still...

Technically, the only thing that bothered me a bit, was that tanks can move just as easily backwards than forwards.

It is even possible to move 1 arrow forwards, then 1 back...resulting in a move of 2 while landing on the same spot. Especially the Americans use this gamey tactic to make us of their Gung-ho rule.

I also noticed the absence of hull-down rules and hills.

The addtion of Hedges, for exmple, I did liek a lot.

Kind regards,

Tom
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monsieur houbigant
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Here are my house rules for movement (based on Flames of War ).
Tanks can only move straight forwards or backwards but can turn up to 90' at the start OR end (not both) of each move speed.

Start with the tank with the lowest Initiative and proceed up through the Initiative order to the tank with the highest Initiative.
To move a tank , place the Measuring Stick touching the tank 'front' or 'rear' – tanks may turn 90’ at the start or end of each move.
Standard tanks can normally move up to two times each turn. Heavy tanks can only move once. Fast tanks can move up to three times per turn.
Vehicles increase their maximum speed by one if the entire move is by road.
Tanks moving in reverse or in slow going reduce their maximum speed by one.
Tanks must reverse in a straight line , no turning possible.
Wheeled Recon vehicles may reverse at their normal speed and turn.
Tanks moving within difficult / very difficult terrain can only move once and must take a bogging check – roll 2+ to avoid bogging down. Roll a Skill test (4+ on d6) to avoid bogging in very difficult terrain.
Wheeled vehicles cannot move in very difficult terrain.
Bogged down tanks may not move or shoot and must pass a Skill test (4+ on d6) to free themselves.
Place a Speed token showing how many times your tank moved.
If you decide not to move a tank it is Stationary. Do not place a Speed token for that tank.
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Craig H
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Boardgamegeneral wrote:
(snip)

I also noticed the absence of hull-down rules and hills.

The addtion of Hedges, for exmple, I did liek a lot.

Kind regards,

Tom


I'm thinking hills would be pretty easy to add. Can't see past them, maybe an extra defense die if you are hull down (might lead to arguments if you are or not...)

Haven't really played enough for better ideas (well one game) as I've been too busy painting and assembling the models.
 
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Jared Voshall
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Yeah, hills would be pretty easy to deal with. The game already has the rules to handle 'hull down' in the +1 Defense if at least two corners are blocked, so hiding behind a hill is easy enough to model, and the rest of it comes down to if you want to treat the top of the hill as Cover (you get +1 Defense while within the terrain) or Clear (only get the +1 Defense if the hill is between you and the attacker). Personally, I'd lean toward the latter, as it gives a bit more flexibility in terrain, but either would work.
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M P
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Boardgamegeneral wrote:
Hi Dave,

Yes, you can "arrow move" though object, including tanks. You cannot, however, stop your tank touching/on top of

Keep in mind that, in reality, everything is moving at once. Naturally, you would not be "driving through" an enemy tank or building. It's just a way of bstracting the movement.

I do not feel that adding rules would make the game worse at all. It would make it less fast and less "easy to learn" though.

When looking for a tank simulation game that goes into detail, this game does not aim to do that. There is always some abstracting...consider that one would write rules for driving around an enemy tank, planning all kinds of manoeuvres, while in reality the enemy tank would itself not stand still...

Technically, the only thing that bothered me a bit, was that tanks can move just as easily backwards than forwards.

It is even possible to move 1 arrow forwards, then 1 back...resulting in a move of 2 while landing on the same spot. Especially the Americans use this gamey tactic to make us of their Gung-ho rule.

I also noticed the absence of hull-down rules and hills.

The addtion of Hedges, for exmple, I did liek a lot.

Kind regards,

Tom


Great post; however, it is my understanding from the rules that whereas you can pass through other tanks you can not drive through buildings or other impassable terrain. (Like hedgehogs, Anti Tank Traps, & destroyed tanks.) See page 8 of the rule book.

Also turning a stationary tank does count as one move. (Which frankly makes me think it should cost 1 move to turn the tank; but, I can understand why they decided not to do it that way.)

I have found that this actually can make a difference in the movement rules. I find that if you add more impassable terrain it makes the movement less crazy. I also like the addition of the minefields.

I do think there should be a rule against taking 2 moves and ending up in the exact same spot.

It also depends on the people you play the game with.
 
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Boardgamegeneral BGG
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Agreed as in: you can't end your move with any part of your tank on top of the building template.

The Arrow that is used should not be seen as moving in a straight line (otherwise there would be rules for turn, corners,...).

So you would in reality drive around the house. Note that due to the lenght of the arrow and the size of the building temple, you could not actually drive "straight though". The arrow isn't long enough to reposition your tank without touching the buidling template.

You could "cut through" (ie: move around) a corner though.
 
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Boardgamegeneral wrote:
Agreed as in: you can't end your move with any part of your tank on top of the building template.

The Arrow that is used should not be seen as moving in a straight line (otherwise there would be rules for turn, corners,...).

So you would in reality drive around the house. Note that due to the lenght of the arrow and the size of the building temple, you could not actually drive "straight though". The arrow isn't long enough to reposition your tank without touching the buidling template.

You could "cut through" (ie: move around) a corner though.



I am not sure that I agree with this interpretation. I am not sure I understand what is meant by not seeing the arrow as moving in a straight line. (Then why use an arrow?) Also you can turn at the end of each movement. I also do not see how you can cut through corners of buildings.


From Page 8 of the rulebook:

Impassable Terrain
A tank cannot end its movement in Impassable terrain. If the Measuring Arrow crosses Impassable terrain, the tank must stop moving when it reaches the Impassable terrain.

- I am basing my conclusion off of the use of the term stop moving. I am not saying you can not make a second movement; I am saying I interpret that as your current movement must stop at the place the arrow touches the impassable terrain.
(I am also basing this off of watching the demos on the Tanks & FOW sites.)

I also find that not "bending" the arrow around corners does help with making the movement a little less random.

Your comment about rules for turning is a good point. I have always thought that is the one main part of the movement rules I would not mind seeing changed. The other being a slower reverse speed although some WW2 tanks could go as fast backwards as forwards.
 
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Jan Horinek
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I think it really is a measuring stick. The triangle that makes it resemble an arrow is there just for show.
 
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Troy Mullineaux
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Is the movement really that bad or unrealistic? I don't have a wealth of real world tank experience, but I remember them going anywhere they wanted.
The ZTR mowers are similar, if you have two tracks you can spin and move thru whatever crushes beneath you. We were on ride alongs and they were hella cool, in the rare instances they moved them into anything or over anything. Seemed pretty agile to me for tons involved.
 
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Jan Horinek
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You place the tank anywhere in the circle and then you shoot 360 around. I personally find it very messy and random but i believe people may like it.
I see you play Attack Wing. It is very, very far from that game, despite the unfortunate habit of comparing this to X-Wing/Attack Wing.
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Troy Mullineaux
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Yup, I was looking for very different from STAW to justify buying it. Kinda broken Borg like in movement from that one, but everyone is Borg in this. I like the 360 or fixed forward of say the Stug if not a turret. So far I enjoy it, save the piecing together and super gluing myself to things. STAW seemed like an investment in super glue as well. Really wanting a Kursk like experience, may need more terrain and crappy lend lease stuff, and Tigers.
 
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