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BoardGameGeek» Forums » Everything Else » Religion, Sex, and Politics

Subject: Audio religion: Vinyl vs CD rss

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Mac Mcleod
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I'm not sure how this one is going to turn out... Just started watching it.

It's one of millions of "pure science" type videos posted to youtube these days. They've crowded network TV out of my life.



BTW, the "Primitive technology" videos are AWESOME as are the Numberphile videos.
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Mac Mcleod
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Wow. It goes way beyond CD; beyond he current digital standards and really disappears off the maximum scale the computer was even capable of recording.

Vinyl LP's are much better than CD's.


If only politics were this dry and analytical and provable.

There are also some cool videos of using wood glue to restore vinyl records (remove all the popping).
 
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Lee Fisher
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J.D. Hall
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I like vinyl, and still use it at home. But on the road (remember I'm an ancient dinosaur) I like CDs for the convenience.
 
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Shawn Fox
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maxo-texas wrote:
Wow. It goes way beyond CD; beyond he current digital standards and really disappears off the maximum scale the computer was even capable of recording.

Vinyl LP's are much better than CD's.


If only politics were this dry and analytical and provable.

There are also some cool videos of using wood glue to restore vinyl records (remove all the popping).


The results are not what they are portrayed to be. Try playing the same LP twice and comparing the results, it doesn't match. Yes you do get more 'frequency response' but it isn't accurate 'frequency response'. A tiny bit of dust, environmental vibrations, room temperature, other sounds (air vibration), etc all interfere with the sounds produced from the needle/LP contact point. Not to mention physical wear on the vinyl and the needle being used to play it.

[edit] Also you can't really hear it anyway. The main difference you hear between listening to music on LP vs a CD, MP3, or whatever is just noise. Yes, some people like that extra noise, and it is fine, but it isn't accurate and the results are not the same from one listen to the next.
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I use nothing but vinyl anymore, but only because I grew a beard, and now I only have the urge to listen to analog and take pictures on film and make my own bread.
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Adrian Hague
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CD's FTW.

There was a period in the late 90's where all I seemed to do was by shiny discs (games, movies and music).

I refuse to sully my golden ears or my hi-fi system with MP3's.
 
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Shawn Fox
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Also I should bring up the other point, which is that an even bigger impact on sound is the speakers and the room you play the music in. I've gone far enough to build two different sets of speakers myself and did a lot of research into the subject while doing it. The frequency response of most speakers varies by +/- 3db over the normal frequency response range of the speakers which completely dwarfs any measurable difference between LP and CD.

Then on top of that, most rooms substantially affect the sounds due to sound waves bouncing off the objects in the room, the resonance of the various walls and other objects in the rooms, standing waves, etc. Unless you are listening to music on $10,000 speakers in a room that you have spent another 10 to 20k adding sound absorption to the walls, mostly what you hear is your speakers and the room itself. The fidelity of the device you are using to listen to your music has a far smaller effect on the results than the speakers and the room itself (assuming you are using something better than an MP3 sampled at under 128k).
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David Dearlove
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Vinyl? We play only 78s in our house. (Actually we do have a 78 phonograph and some 30's records for fun.)
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Tom McVey
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DavidDearlove wrote:
Vinyl? We play only 78s in our house. (Actually we do have a 78 phonograph and some 30's records for fun.)


You wannabe hipsters. I was into music on clay tablets before it went mainstream.

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John Hathorn
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tmcvey wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
Vinyl? We play only 78s in our house. (Actually we do have a 78 phonograph and some 30's records for fun.)


You wannabe hipsters. I was into music on clay tablets before it went mainstream.


You have clay? I just bang rocks together.
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JohnnyOffice wrote:
tmcvey wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
Vinyl? We play only 78s in our house. (Actually we do have a 78 phonograph and some 30's records for fun.)


You wannabe hipsters. I was into music on clay tablets before it went mainstream.


You have clay? I just bang rocks together.


Rocks. Such humans. I only sing the Song of the Ainur and created the mountains and Dwarves and things.
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Vinyl? Next thing you'll tell me is you still watch Black and White TVs because it's also "better."

You can lie to yourself, if you want, but don't lie to me.
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Jeff
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I am the opposite of an audiophile; it's all the same to me. I buy vinyl for my favorite records because it's gorgeous. Colored discs! The gorgeous cover and storybook "insert" of Joanna Newsom's Ys! The extra 45, the CD of extras, the signed Valentine's card, and the BOARD GAME that come'/ with Aiden Moffat's How to Get to Heaven From Scotland! It's glorious. That, and the delicious anticipation of dropping the needle on the record, especially that first time, ought to have every component whore on this site buying vinyl.

The only time I'm disappointed is when a vinyl version doesn't include a digital download; it's rare, but inexcusable.

I buy CDs for "lesser" albums or when the CD is cheaper than the digital version, which is infuriatingly frequent.
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ExcitingJeff wrote:
I am the opposite of an audiophile; it's all the same to me. I buy vinyl for my favorite records because it's gorgeous. Colored discs! The gorgeous cover and storybook "insert" of Joanna Newsom's Ys! The extra 45, the CD of extras, the signed Valentine's card, and the BOARD GAME that come'/ with Aiden Moffat's How to Get to Heaven From Scotland! It's glorious. That, and the delicious anticipation of dropping the needle on the record, especially that first time, ought to have every component whore on this site buying vinyl.

The only time I'm disappointed is when a vinyl version doesn't include a digital download; it's rare, but inexcusable.

I buy CDs for "lesser" albums or when the CD is cheaper than the digital version, which is infuriatingly frequent.


The medium doesn't matter. The enjoyment is what matters. I can get just as much enjoyment from digital as I can from Vinyl. The reason I go with a physical copy of a game over an app is simply that it's easier (for me) to see whats going on at all times, with a physical copy of the game when there are multiple players. If I'm playing on my own, then I will go with digital.
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Mutton Chops
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I don't have any vinyl or CDs any more, I just use Spotify on my phone (albeit at the least-lossy setting). Like most middle-aged people, my ears can't detect a sufficiently wide frequency range for me to care too much about trying to get perfect fidelity in reproduction, and the advantage of having all the music in any room in the house (I have multiple speaker systems) without having to go to another room to change the record far outweighs having better quality I can't even hear.
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Jeff
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Dispaminite wrote:
ExcitingJeff wrote:
I am the opposite of an audiophile; it's all the same to me. I buy vinyl for my favorite records because it's gorgeous. Colored discs! The gorgeous cover and storybook "insert" of Joanna Newsom's Ys! The extra 45, the CD of extras, the signed Valentine's card, and the BOARD GAME that come'/ with Aiden Moffat's How to Get to Heaven From Scotland! It's glorious. That, and the delicious anticipation of dropping the needle on the record, especially that first time, ought to have every component whore on this site buying vinyl.

The only time I'm disappointed is when a vinyl version doesn't include a digital download; it's rare, but inexcusable.

I buy CDs for "lesser" albums or when the CD is cheaper than the digital version, which is infuriatingly frequent.


The medium doesn't matter. The enjoyment is what matters. I can get just as much enjoyment from digital as I can from Vinyl. The reason I go with a physical copy of a game over an app is simply that it's easier (for me) to see whats going on at all times, with a physical copy of the game when there are multiple players. If I'm playing on my own, then I will go with digital.


While I agree with you in terms of digital games and the convenience of digital music, sometimes vinyl vs. a digital download is like the difference between the War of the Rings deluxe edition with 30,000 painted minis and a clamshell Winsome Games edition. You're getting the same great content, but I'm not about to give up my extras.
 
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ExcitingJeff wrote:
Dispaminite wrote:
ExcitingJeff wrote:
I am the opposite of an audiophile; it's all the same to me. I buy vinyl for my favorite records because it's gorgeous. Colored discs! The gorgeous cover and storybook "insert" of Joanna Newsom's Ys! The extra 45, the CD of extras, the signed Valentine's card, and the BOARD GAME that come'/ with Aiden Moffat's How to Get to Heaven From Scotland! It's glorious. That, and the delicious anticipation of dropping the needle on the record, especially that first time, ought to have every component whore on this site buying vinyl.

The only time I'm disappointed is when a vinyl version doesn't include a digital download; it's rare, but inexcusable.

I buy CDs for "lesser" albums or when the CD is cheaper than the digital version, which is infuriatingly frequent.


The medium doesn't matter. The enjoyment is what matters. I can get just as much enjoyment from digital as I can from Vinyl. The reason I go with a physical copy of a game over an app is simply that it's easier (for me) to see whats going on at all times, with a physical copy of the game when there are multiple players. If I'm playing on my own, then I will go with digital.


While I agree with you in terms of digital games and the convenience of digital music, sometimes vinyl vs. a digital download is like the difference between the War of the Rings deluxe edition with 30,000 painted minis and a clamshell Winsome Games edition. You're getting the same great content, but I'm not about to give up my extras.


And if it matters that much to the person, then great, have at it. But I don't care about the Behind the scenes looks that are included on a DVD/Blu-Ray. I just want to watch the film.

I just want to listen to the song. I don't care about how it was made, or what the creators mmood was when he was making the song. Just play the damn song.
 
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Josh
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Skeptic mag did a piece about audiophiles a few years back, and the punchline is that the human ear is unable to perceive the sorts of "benefits" provided by most snooty audio tech (which isn't to say there isn't better and worse audio).
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Mac Mcleod
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I can tell the difference between 128 and 192 bit rate easily.

I'm not an audiophile and i'm old but I think I can still tell the difference between vinyl and cd for opera with decent but not super expensive audio systems. It's not enough to matter for me. Most music I listen to is background not foreground.
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Jeff
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maxo-texas wrote:
I can tell the difference between 128 and 192 bit rate easily.

I'm not an audiophile and i'm old but I think I can still tell the difference between vinyl and cd for opera with decent but not super expensive audio systems. It's not enough to matter for me. Most music I listen to is background not foreground.


Even my tin ear can distinguish that. But that's the difference between SUPER DUPER COMPRESSED and SUPER COMPRESSED. Audiophiles and their media an connectors that are all literally made of gold would never consider listening to something like that. They're too busy remastering Steely Dan records or whatever they do.
 
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Shawn Fox
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maxo-texas wrote:
I can tell the difference between 128 and 192 bit rate easily.


128kbps MP3 cuts off at 16,000 hz, pretty easy for most people without hearing loss to detect. Once you get up to 192kbps it can represent beyond 20,000 hz, but there is still a filter that throws away anything outside the range of 20-20000 hz. Humans can't hear anything outside of that range anyway (although we can feel sound below 20 hz which is why movies do not use MP3, they generally use lossless formats such as PCM or DTS).

Some people claim to be able to hear the difference between 192 kbps, and 256 or 320 kbps but I tend to think those are boasts rather than truth.
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JoshBot wrote:
Skeptic mag did a piece about audiophiles a few years back, and the punchline is that the human ear is unable to perceive the sorts of "benefits" provided by most snooty audio tech (which isn't to say there isn't better and worse audio).

It depends on what you are talking about. If you mean stuff like $1000 audio cables, then of course, that stuff is complete nonsense. You can't buy a really good quality set of front speakers for under $1000 though. A solid 5.1 entertainment system for movies (fronts, center, sides, plus subwoofer) is going to cost you $2000 - $2500 (counting the receiver). Spend less than that and the sound difference is really obvious. Still a lot to gain going up to around double that, but beyond around $5000 the difference in sound quality is pretty meaningless.

That isn't to say that you can't build an entertainment system for under $1000, all I'm saying is that it is really easy even for a non audiophile to hear the difference between a $1000 entertainment system and $2000 one.
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sfox wrote:
JoshBot wrote:
Skeptic mag did a piece about audiophiles a few years back, and the punchline is that the human ear is unable to perceive the sorts of "benefits" provided by most snooty audio tech (which isn't to say there isn't better and worse audio).

It depends on what you are talking about. If you mean stuff like $1000 audio cables, then of course, that stuff is complete nonsense. You can't buy a really good quality set of front speakers for under $1000 though. A solid 5.1 entertainment system for movies (fronts, center, sides, plus subwoofer) is going to cost you $2000 - $2500 (counting the receiver). Spend less than that and the sound difference is really obvious. Still a lot to gain going up to around double that, but beyond around $5000 the difference in sound quality is pretty meaningless.

That isn't to say that you can't build an entertainment system for under $1000, all I'm saying is that it is really easy even for a non audiophile to hear the difference between a $1000 entertainment system and $2000 one.


And I say that is mostly psychosomatic. Like people who claim they can tell the difference between cheap and expensive wine. Sure, maybe one in a million MAYBE can. But most of the rest are just trying to justify their expenditure.
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Shawn Fox
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Dispaminite wrote:
sfox wrote:
JoshBot wrote:
Skeptic mag did a piece about audiophiles a few years back, and the punchline is that the human ear is unable to perceive the sorts of "benefits" provided by most snooty audio tech (which isn't to say there isn't better and worse audio).

It depends on what you are talking about. If you mean stuff like $1000 audio cables, then of course, that stuff is complete nonsense. You can't buy a really good quality set of front speakers for under $1000 though. A solid 5.1 entertainment system for movies (fronts, center, sides, plus subwoofer) is going to cost you $2000 - $2500 (counting the receiver). Spend less than that and the sound difference is really obvious. Still a lot to gain going up to around double that, but beyond around $5000 the difference in sound quality is pretty meaningless.

That isn't to say that you can't build an entertainment system for under $1000, all I'm saying is that it is really easy even for a non audiophile to hear the difference between a $1000 entertainment system and $2000 one.


And I say that is mostly psychosomatic. Like people who claim they can tell the difference between cheap and expensive wine. Sure, maybe one in a million MAYBE can. But most of the rest are just trying to justify their expenditure.

How well it works at higher volume is what you are buying when you spend $2500+ on your sound system. If you want to watch movies at reference level (around 85db with peaks of 105db), cheap speakers just can't do it. Maybe not at all, or at minimum they will break up and sound like crap. Not any different than having a car that can go 0-60 in 4 seconds vs 10. High volume takes better materials and high quality engineering.

If you only listen to talk radio or country music at low to moderate volume, sure, it doesn't make a significant difference. Movies, some classical music, EDM, hard rock/metal, etc can really stress cheap speakers. If you crank your speakers up to 100db to listen to ride of the valkyries or master of puppets you can very easily tell if you've got a good system or not.
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