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Codex: Card-Time Strategy» Forums » General

Subject: You suck Sirlin games. rss

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Dustin Crenshaw
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I was shocked today when I got in the expansion and it doesn't come with the fracking binders. $40 for 180 cards (which are not even that good of quality). Unbelievable.
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Mike Kraus
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Yeah, this one is on you I'm afraid. It's been pretty clear from the get go that the only way you get those binders is to buy the "master" set.
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Mr Mason
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I assume you are also paying for what is on the cards.
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James Mathias
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SeerMagic wrote:
I was shocked today when I got in the expansion and it doesn't come with the fracking binders. $40 for 180 cards (which are not even that good of quality). Unbelievable.


Especially with news of the Tyrants of the Underdark 80 card expansion coming in at $12.

Overall Codex is overpriced. The game is wonderful, but the components are nowhere near what I expected for $225.
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Clinton Paris
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jmathias wrote:
Overall Codex is overpriced. The game is wonderful, but the components are nowhere near what I expected for $225.

I remember when Through the Ages first came out and people were appalled at it's price "for a bunch of cards." Fast forward a few years and people realize it's a spectacular game that sells so well that they do several printings and a new edition. Gamers will pay top dollar for Splotter games for the same reason, despite most of their games being just a bunch of cardboard tiles and chits.

For me, Codex is in a class of games that have a higher price tag but I'm happy to pay for just how damn good the games are. Heck, I'm trying to sell off some games just so I can get a second Codex Deluxe set!

meeple


TLDR: "Your mileage may vary."

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trevor

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Bigsixer wrote:
Yeah, this one is on you I'm afraid. It's been pretty clear from the get go that the only way you get those binders is to buy the "master" set.


Yeah i mean like 3 seconds of research could have solved this problem.....
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Doctor Fedora
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nobody tell him what Magic cards go for on the secondhand market
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Christian K
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I will disagree with the statement that Sirlin Games suck. In fact, I think they are awesome
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Jason Reid
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crparis wrote:
For me, Codex is in a class of games that have a higher price tag but I'm happy to pay for just how damn good the games are.


Yeah, it's in the class of games where I have to keep taking breaks from it periodically otherwise it wrecks my sleep! Kind of ridiculously good.
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John Carr
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Suck Sirling games? I'm not sure if I like the taste of cards.
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Austin Andersen
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jmathias wrote:
SeerMagic wrote:
I was shocked today when I got in the expansion and it doesn't come with the fracking binders. $40 for 180 cards (which are not even that good of quality). Unbelievable.


Especially with news of the Tyrants of the Underdark 80 card expansion coming in at $12.

Overall Codex is overpriced. The game is wonderful, but the components are nowhere near what I expected for $225.


You get what you pay for. For $12 for the expansion, I doubt the Tyrant's of the Underdark expansion will have much support after the launch. There might be a FAQ that comes out sometime later, other than that most likely nothing.

While $40 can seem like a lot for 180 cards, this is only considering what comes in the box. Codex: Card-Time Strategy has the benefit of having an extensive support system to resolve any card ambiguities that players may come across.

I find that most if not all of Sirlin Games are are on the pricier side, but I have yet to regret any purchase as my kids and I have had lots of fun playing them.
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Rabid Schnauzer
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bbblasterfire wrote:


While $40 can seem like a lot for 180 cards, this is only considering what comes in the box. Codex: Card-Time Strategy has the benefit of having an extensive support system to resolve any card ambiguities that players may come across.


You're really underestimating my ability to find card ambiguities.....

Codex is definitely premium priced, and the justification for that is the development time and cost it took to make the game. But I think that a lot of the wordings really should have had another editing pass for the price tag.
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K
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Sirlin Games definitely doesn't suck (best game company in the business for 1v1 dueling games)

But I can understand the disappointment with not getting binders in the expos. The Starter and Core sets are billed as good entry points to try out the game, but the only way to get all the binders is to get the Deluxe set which you won't want if you already entered the game with the Core Set.
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E. Strathmeyer
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The official Codex binders (while nice) are in no way a necessary to play the game. Just get a few 3 ring binders and some 9-pocket plastic sleeves.
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Dustin Crenshaw
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DoctorFedora wrote:
nobody tell him what Magic cards go for on the secondhand market


Cars are very expensive too.
 
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Dustin Crenshaw
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I've cooled off some now. I still feel it's very overpriced. When your more expensive than FFG LCGs, your special.

I'm also pretty unhappy they couldn't put the 4 fracking building cards in there needed for 3+ players. That's some insane corning cutting.

strathmeyer wrote:
The official Codex binders (while nice) are in no way a necessary to play the game. Just get a few 3 ring binders and some 9-pocket plastic sleeves.


Any suggestions for a small 3 ring binder. I had one to try, and it's just simply too big.
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David Sirlin
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Sorry the price isn't working for you. Our goal was to make each faction literally more than 10x (or 20x?) cheaper than a tournament strength MtG deck. Those are $300-400, so we succeeded at that. It's actually really exciting that a tournament strength deck is so cheap in Codex, but the comparison is a bit off because a Codex faction has more cards and way more strategies possible than a single traditional CCG deck. So a $20 faction is more comparable to about 3x tournament-strength decks in a game such as MtG. You also get a full set of token cards too, with the Codex expansions.

If there is enough demand for more binders, we'll consider offering those separately someday.
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Brian
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Sirlin wrote:
If there is enough demand for more binders, we'll consider offering those separately someday.


Yes please, even if they just have the generic Codex logo or alternate covers on it if you want to avoid the Deluxe exclusive binders.
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Joshua Christensen
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SeerMagic wrote:
I've cooled off some now. I still feel it's very overpriced. When your more expensive than FFG LCGs, your special.


Wait, how is Codex more expensive then an LCG? A Codex expansion costs $40 and comes with 180-190+ cards and $45 dollars on an LCG would get you 180 cards. The Codex core does cost $50 to an LCG core costing $40 but FFG LCG cores are pretty incomplete. In both cases the Codex products get you ridiculously more amount of game play then the LCG products for the amount you spend.

I'm not sure what the reason is but board games seem to be one of the few (the only?) creative endeavors where people feel they should only have to pay for the physical cost of the components and not the work that went into it.

Sirlin Games designs games with tournament level play in mind so more work goes into it which is going to make it cost a bit more. However, their games don't cost near as much as other tournament card games on the market. It just depends what you want out of your games and what you're comfortable paying for. Imo their games prices compare very favorably with other similarish games. Games such as Summoner Wars, Ashes, Imperial Settlers, Ascension, any LCG, any CCG, and others.

It seems that most of your being upset comes from lack of binders? On that I kind of feel like Kickstarter is to blame a bit. The Kickstarter culture demands exclusives and with a game like Codex gameplay exclusives are 100% out of the question. So it was left up to the binders and base cards being exclusive. Those still can be acquired by getting the deluxe set which I was happy about. I would be more happy if the exclusive culture wasn't so prominent and companies didn't have to bother with them at all if it would become a detriment to their game.

jmathias wrote:

Especially with news of the Tyrants of the Underdark 80 card expansion coming in at $12.


Where is the information on this expansion? I looked around for info on it and couldn't find any.

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Dustin Crenshaw
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ClanNatioy wrote:
SeerMagic wrote:
I've cooled off some now. I still feel it's very overpriced. When your more expensive than FFG LCGs, your special.


Wait, how is Codex more expensive then an LCG? A Codex expansion costs $40 and comes with 180-190+ cards and $45 dollars on an LCG would get you 180 cards. The Codex core does cost $50 to an LCG core costing $40 but FFG LCG cores are pretty incomplete. In both cases the Codex products get you ridiculously more amount of game play then the LCG products for the amount you spend.

I'm not sure what the reason is but board games seem to be one of the few (the only?) creative endeavors where people feel they should only have to pay for the physical cost of the components and not the work that went into it.

Sirlin Games designs games with tournament level play in mind so more work goes into it which is going to make it cost a bit more. However, their games don't cost near as much as other tournament card games on the market. It just depends what you want out of your games and what you're comfortable paying for. Imo their games prices compare very favorably with other similarish games. Games such as Summoner Wars, Ashes, Imperial Settlers, Ascension, any LCG, any CCG, and others.

It seems that most of your being upset comes from lack of binders? On that I kind of feel like Kickstarter is to blame a bit. The Kickstarter culture demands exclusives and with a game like Codex gameplay exclusives are 100% out of the question. So it was left up to the binders and base cards being exclusive. Those still can be acquired by getting the deluxe set which I was happy about. I would be more happy if the exclusive culture wasn't so prominent and companies didn't have to bother with them at all if it would become a detriment to their game.

jmathias wrote:

Especially with news of the Tyrants of the Underdark 80 card expansion coming in at $12.


Where is the information on this expansion? I looked around for info on it and couldn't find any.



FFG Deluxe expansions are more cards, better quality components, at $30.

I get that tons of testing went into the game. And that should count for something. But the price for the expansion is really bad in comparison to their own core set.

All those games listed didn't raise a bunch of money on kickstarter.

Lack of binders yes, their obviously important to the game.

My game store is a big in magic, none of them are playing codex. We got plenty of board gamers playing it. I feel it shouldn't be compared to ccgs, they are very different markets.

So yeah I feel it most certainly should have came with binders. Then I learn I can't even buy the damn things. And surely you can't defend them for not even putting the few needed building cards for multiplayer.
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Joshua Christensen
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SeerMagic wrote:

FFG Deluxe expansions are more cards, better quality components, at $30.


That's only one product for those games they typical expansions for LCGs are more expensive then Codex expansions.

SeerMagic wrote:

All those games listed didn't raise a bunch of money on kickstarter.


what does that mean? Because they made money on kickstarter they have to sell at retail for less then what they'd like?

SeerMagic wrote:

My game store is a big in magic, none of them are playing codex. We got plenty of board gamers playing it. I feel it shouldn't be compared to ccgs, they are very different markets.


Codex, like every other game in the genre, definitely wants to take a share of that CCG market though so I feel it's still worth pointing out. Plus CCGs were only one thing I compared it to.

SeerMagic wrote:

So yeah I feel it most certainly should have came with binders. Then I learn I can't even buy the damn things. And surely you can't defend them for not even putting the few needed building cards for multiplayer.


It would be nice if they could be bought separately hopefully the demand will be there that will make it possible.

Yeah it would have been handy if the expansion came with a few building cards. Luckily the building cards are the easiest card to do with out. Since they all have a different cost you can just use a dice set to the number that matches the price of the building built and set that in the appropriate area.
 
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Sharpo Bject
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SeerMagic wrote:

Any suggestions for a small 3 ring binder. I had one to try, and it's just simply too big.

The "Poly 2-Pocket Portfolios With Prongs" at Office Depot work pretty well for this and come in the 6 appropriate colors.
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James Mathias
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Comparing the cost of Codex to the cost of the secondary market for Magic is misleading. The market that this game is being advertised to is the Board Game market, with a hope of making a dent in the CCG market. But a lot of the people it most appeals to are people that left Magic due to costs to stay competitive.

Padding your price to include coverage for creative time and expenditure is frowned upon generally when you are selling a mass produced end product. The general expected practice is you make up your investment (time + money) on sales. This is different than one off creative endeavors.

Codex is a great game, really interesting and fun. But.

Codex's component quality and distribution compared to it's retail price is skewed. The cards aren't terrible, but they aren't great. The mats are washed out, and dark. The binders are custom cut, but otherwise no different in quality from the Mage Wars binders, which aren't very durable or well made. The chits are all plain and boring, and not very thematic. Etc...
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Jason Reid
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SeerMagic wrote:
FFG Deluxe expansions are more cards, better quality components, at $30.


The economics of a one-off game and a LCG are all different, though. FFG can sell you at a lower cost per unit if they expect that they're going to be selling you a lot of units over the life of the product. Plus, the two companies are radically different sizes. Sirlin is a smaller publisher than FFG, and small publishers have a higher cost base per unit, which means their games pretty much always cost more.

Yeah, the economics are totally different here. You're free to vote with your wallet of course, since none of these things is your problem as a consumer, but it's silly I think to look at these things as "cash grabs" of any sort.
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Jason Peacock
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Sirlin wrote:
Sorry the price isn't working for you. Our goal was to make each faction literally more than 10x (or 20x?) cheaper than a tournament strength MtG deck. Those are $300-400, so we succeeded at that. It's actually really exciting that a tournament strength deck is so cheap in Codex, but the comparison is a bit off because a Codex faction has more cards and way more strategies possible than a single traditional CCG deck. So a $20 faction is more comparable to about 3x tournament-strength decks in a game such as MtG. You also get a full set of token cards too, with the Codex expansions.

If there is enough demand for more binders, we'll consider offering those separately someday.


Let me start the demand now. Yes please on the binders sold separate. You might as well offer full support for the non master set.

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