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Star Trek: Ascendancy» Forums » General

Subject: Is there something wrong with the win conditions in this game? rss

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The Giant Inconvenience of Planet X
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Last 4 games we played have had excruciatingly long and drawn out end games. We are talking like a 1/4 of the game time in these terrible long and boring moves at the end.

Basically the "must have a home world" to win thing means you need to hold your win condition for two entire turns, as the movement phase to recapture your home world is before after the command phase. So you need to capture your homeworld, and then hold it for a full turn, then you need to colonise it and hold the win condition for a entire turn. Effectively meaning any win condition needs 2 turns to activate.

This can lead to absolutely bullshit drawn out back and forth lameness that just goes on and one forever. As no one is ever in a position to win, as the holding for 2 entire turns gives so much time for one of the other players to kill it off.

Each time this back and forth basically meant a slow witting down of power as there is no room to ever just recapture random planets or rebuilt nodes and the only options seam to be to build what fleets you can and retake homeworlds and d story teh fleets that get rebuilt every turn, as any move that dose nto destroy the homeworld or a fleet means a game loss. So after hours of this eventually the game state is so depressed that we are al basically at teh start of the game again.

Has anyone run into this really slow frustrating end state?
 
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Paul Ferguson
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It's called a strategy game for a reason. Figure out when it is the best time to pull the trigger and go for the win. My last play, I won with the romulans by getting the 5th ascendancy token. I made sure I went first in the round I was going to gain the 5th token so I could block any paths to my home world and, I reinforced my home world with 15 ships. The Feds still made it to my home world as a last ditch effort to stop me calming the win.

Here are some tips. Never leave your home world unattended, EVER! You know that it is a win condition to maintain control so don't give it up easy. If you see another player building up warp token, expect they are heading to someone's home world, so block off paths and make it difficult and time consuming for them to attack your home world.

To play STA well, like most good 4X strategy games, you need to think about your next round of actions, not just the current one. Plan for the next 1 or 2 rounds, you need to focus on the macro and not what is happening right now.

In the game I won, the other 2 players knew I only need one more token, so they both took out my planets that had culture centers on them. I knew this would be one of 2 possible reactions from the other players, so to counter this, I went heavy into research via collecting 4 research tokens on the phenomena systems and gained my culture from my racial bonus and got the 5th ascendancy token.

Also, if you keep doing the same thing and expect a different outcome, then you are not playing well. You need to be organic with this game, and stop being rigid and set on doing things one particular way.
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Maldus Alver

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The win conditions are straight forward. Primary win is a resource game while secondary win is a military game. As I said before without the two other expansions (Cardassian and Fernegi) it doesn't seem like a full 4x game especially when there is no race that truly commits itself to either the resource or military win conditions. Ferengi would be a true resource collection game while Cardassians victory would almost always be supremacy victory.

So yes there is something wrong with the victory conditions but it is not what you may think it is and the two expansions will resolve that problem easily.
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Angelus Seniores
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Marinealver wrote:
The win conditions are straight forward. Primary win is a resource game while secondary win is a military game. As I said before without the two other expansions (Cardassian and Fernegi) it doesn't seem like a full 4x game especially when there is no race that truly commits itself to either the resource or military win conditions. Ferengi would be a true resource collection game while Cardassians victory would almost always be supremacy victory.

So yes there is something wrong with the victory conditions but it is not what you may think it is and the two expansions will resolve that problem easily.


i dont entirely agree with you;
- given the ferengi have lots of production generating tech and rules, it means they are much more likely to build huge fleets to attack with, spending it on culture is not easy as they need 100 production to buy ascendancy tokens, those can be used to buy 100 ships!
-the klingons are already primed for supremacy victory and closely followed by the romulans given all their combat bonuses.
-i like the fact that while some races may look more likely for achieving a given victory condition/that in practice they may actually have a good chance of achieving either, if you are stuck with a single win condition you might be blocked faster by opposing players.

but yeah, the 4x aspect will shine better with more races
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The Giant Inconvenience of Planet X
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None of these posts have anything to do with the topic of the thread...

I'm asking about the 2 turn win condition that requires you to control your homeworld for the game to end.
 
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Angelus Seniores
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GasPumpGirl wrote:
None of these posts have anything to do with the topic of the thread...

I'm asking about the 2 turn win condition that requires you to control your homeworld for the game to end.


2 turns to control a planet is only in the worst case scenario ie when a total annihilation result wiped out all nodes of the planet.

otherwise, a succesful invasion will put you in control of the system in the same turn you attacked it as you replace their control node with your own control node thus you can achieve victory at the end of the turn.

sure, 2 turns is a problem but i doubt all players will choose to go for a total annihilation result if they want to win the same turn.

given turn order bidding, you can bid for turns giving you 2 consecutive turns ie go last in the previous one, go first in the next.
with this you can either launch 2 attacks on your opponents before they can react to it, crippling their production/fleets or setup a formidable defense on your homeworld to be able to keep it till the end of the 2nd turn.

if you go first in a turn, you can exhaust an opponents key tech (using the espionage tech that most races have to do so) so they lose that advantage which helps you defend your planet better.

as said before, clever managing your resources and fleets/defenses is needed to win. you might want to give your opponents a false sense of security in some way so your final attack push comes as a surprise. maybe stockpile a bit more resources from turn to turn and use them all on the last turn.
and defending your homeworld is a must to avoid reaching such a stalemate situation.

you can cripple an opponents ability to strike back by taking out their production planets or at least destroy several production nodes on them reducing their ability to build new ships. or by taking their starbases so they have no location to build ships.

try to let your opponents fight each other while you stay defensive (sometimes not pushing to win may put you off as a prime target for a stronger push next turn).
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Joel Tamburo
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This is a strategy game not a quick social game. As posted upthread it isn't THAT hard to secure your home world for one turn.
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Craig Sanderlin
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GasPumpGirl wrote:
None of these posts have anything to do with the topic of the thread...

I'm asking about the 2 turn win condition that requires you to control your homeworld for the game to end.


You need to protect your homeworld and access points to it. There are several different strategic ways to do this. I even block off access points at the edge of my empire near the end of the game to slow people down.

As long as you are careful with proper defensive tactics, the "must control home world" rule is rarely an issue.
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The Giant Inconvenience of Planet X
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Obviously you want to protect your home world.. but (especially as it is a win condition) eventually in SOME game you WILL loose it. This is not some rare event in the game... it happens and will happen and in some ways it is designed to happen now and then.

The problem is that once you loose your homeworld the 2 turn win condition (federation colony fleet can do it in one turn) means that the end game can be hugely dragged out as every turn each player wit ha win condition gets nailed by the other 2. Then there is another 2 turn build up.. and bang.. another "knock back" round.. que 2 hours of very repetitive and boring gameplay as the resources and fleets slowly get whittled down.

 
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Daniel Grant
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GasPumpGirl wrote:
Has anyone run into this really slow frustrating end state?


It seems like the majority of replies are "No". Could your group be misinterpreting a rule? It happens to the best of us, so it isn't a criticism or a knock if you are. You may want to re-check the rules.

If you are confident that your group has the rules down solid, consider house ruling a win for the person who gets Ascendancy first or an alternative win condition. No use wasting time on an unenjoyable chore. Alter the game to your group's liking!
 
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Angelus Seniores
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GasPumpGirl wrote:
Obviously you want to protect your home world.. but (especially as it is a win condition) eventually in SOME game you WILL loose it. This is not some rare event in the game... it happens and will happen and in some ways it is designed to happen now and then.

The problem is that once you loose your homeworld the 2 turn win condition (federation colony fleet can do it in one turn) means that the end game can be hugely dragged out as every turn each player wit ha win condition gets nailed by the other 2. Then there is another 2 turn build up.. and bang.. another "knock back" round.. que 2 hours of very repetitive and boring gameplay as the resources and fleets slowly get whittled down.



in one of my previous posts i have mentioned you would only need 2 turns to retake your homeworld if the attacker scored a total annihilation result during his invasion ie all nodes are destroyed;

-total annihilation is a specific invasion result where the attacker scores just the right amount of hits to destroy all nodes (ie not too few and not more hits than nodes) so its not a regular result (unless the klingons have their orbital bombardment tech and choose to use it each time, or the cardassians with their similar tech but you can exhaust these techs so they cant be used for a turn).

-players who are going for a supremacy victory are unlikely to go for total annihilation and will instead want to put their control node in place, or at least establish their control node after the total annihilation, to take back and control a planet with a control node in place simply requires a succesful invasion and thus only 1 turn to take back and control the homeworld, not 2 turns.

total annihilation should not be as common as you make it out to be.
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Grant Whitesell

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Angelsenior wrote:
total annihilation should not be as common as you make it out to be.


I noticed that the Federation's planetary defense tech that allows them to ignore one hit actually ended up in several total annihilations against me. So it's not *that* uncommon.

I was playing a Klingon that had the 'take 2 of matching resource for each node you destroy' so that was fine with him.
 
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Angelus Seniores
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isnt that tech worded as "you may ignore 1 hit?"
so the federation player can choose to use it or not.
 
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Grant Whitesell

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Which is a weird thing, I guess you could as part of a strategy in which you let them take it over as opposed to total annihilation by ignoring the hit. But if you were planning on taking back the world via Hegemony anyway, why not just surrender the planet? Turn order I guess. If you've already gone it may be better to make him waste the nodes on the planet rather than him get the benefit cleanly for that turn.
 
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