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Cthulhu Wars» Forums » General

Subject: Not that CiTOW&Forbidden Stars are OOP... rss

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Tomasz Podsiadło
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"Now" I meant
...And are going to cost arm&leg...
We can finally enjoy cease from being called "those stupid kick-start-scrubs, who enjoy playing shitty Cthulhu Wars just because they paid a few salaries for that, and feel like have to praise it"!
 
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Michael Off The Shelf Board Game Reviews
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omnibus4404 wrote:
...And are going to cost arm&leg...
We can finally enjoy cease from being called "those stupid kick-start-scrubs, who enjoy playing shitty Cthulhu Wars just because they paid a few salaries for that, and feel like have to praise it"!



Not sure how Forbidden Stars compares to Cthulhu Wars but honestly does it matter who spent what on what games though?

I know you meant this to be tongue in cheek but do people really think this way that much? Cthulhu Wars is a better game than Chaos In The Old World regardless of the price spent on either game
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Joao F. Falaschi
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Cthulhu Wars wish it was as good as CitOW or Forbidden Stars... That's why it has huge minis, to make it up for the average performance...
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Bob Boberson

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jffalaschi wrote:
Cthulhu Wars wish it was as good as CitOW or Forbidden Stars... That's why it has huge minis, to make it up for the average performance...


Incorrect. goo Though you are certainly entitled to your opinion, that is just your opinion.

While the big minis are certainly a draw, the gameplay exceeds CitOW and I own both. CitOW becomes very formulaic after a few games where I find CW has more viable strategies which are dependent on the game situation.
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Chris Morris
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I've played Cthulhu Wars, CitOW and Blood Rage and only Cthulhu Ward actually appeals to me. It has nothing to do with the minis. I found CitOW too hard to grasp and having far to many things going on within it. Blood Rage it so dependent on card draws to build a strong strategy.

Cthulhu Wars plays faster and has just as much depth as the others and I enjoy each and every game of it that I play. I'd play with cardboard standees and still be more than happy with it.
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Tomasz Podsiadło
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Quote:

Not sure how Forbidden Stars compares to Cthulhu Wars but honestly does it matter who spent what on what games though?

Not at all! At least for me. Still, amount of people pointing that out is... amusing.
Quote:
Cthulhu Wars wish it was as good as CitOW or Forbidden Stars... That's why it has huge minis, to make it up for the average performance...

Your opinnion. I respect it, but can't agree. For me, gameplaywise, Chaos is really overrated.
1 swingy and moody as hell event deck, which frequently makes a game for one side.
4 decks of spells, which basically tell you how you should play.
Random set-up which can completely ruin your game, depending on who you play as.
Combat system is one huge joke. Even comparing throwing 20+ dices in CW is waaaay less random, considering both game's special abilities and stuff like that. I have no idea how such an abomination could pass by.
The game works only for 4 players.
The amount of resources you get every turn is almost constant. Your results affect that in no way.
Lack of flexibility in paths to victory of each God.
Unclear and overly complicated rules for corruption and destruction.
Kingmaking.
Balance issues.

Chaos IMHO isn't even strategic game, before you&your group of players reach the point of 10-20+ games played. What control you have over the game, before at least knowing more or less card decks? what can you really plan in this game, how anyone is meant to realise such a plan? Where's a field for your decisions?
For me (It's all just my opinion, I don't mean to offence you, and your taste) Cthulhu Wars answers most of those problems. *
*Still I believe Core Set should have high priests in it, it'd really help the game.

Still I like that game. But at first place just because of how nicely it catches warhammer-esque of its setting.

Also let me just ask: How is it possible, that game with only a minis to catch an eye on, and NOTHING ELSE, has probably the richest PBF section on BGG, where we literally move pixels on the map (for weeks, months, years...)?
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Gabriel N
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jffalaschi wrote:
Cthulhu Wars wish it was as good as CitOW or Forbidden Stars... That's why it has huge minis, to make it up for the average performance...


Actually Cthulhu Wars is one of the best dudes on a map games, and it is way better than CitOW and Forbidden Stars. For me Cthulhu Wars would be the second of the genre, the first one being Kemet... But Cthulhu Wars overproduced components and size is a big turn off for me, I really wish they make a decent standard size version of this amazing game someday (it can still have great minis and high quality components, but not that big). So, I decided not to play Cthulhu Wars anymore and just play Kemet and Cry Havoc these days.
 
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Arthur Petersen
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I'm biased, obviously, whistle but after talking many times in various places (here on BGG, at many conventions, etc.) about the comparison between CitOW and CW since the CW KS, here are my thoughts:

1. Those who haven't played CW much (or at all) frequently think of the two as being very similar. Those who have played both always cite areas of similarity and difference, as it is very obvious to those who've played CW a few times where the striking differences are. However, because the similarities are easier to identify and specify on the surface, it is difficult to convince those who have only played CW once or twice (or not at all!) that the games are actually easily as different as Mare Nostrum and Small World. Or Khemet and Blood Rage. Or Stone Age and Caylus. At a surface level, I can describe all three of those matchups with as many similarities as CitOW and CW. But no one thinks of them as "so similar you only need to play or care about one of them."

I recall as one of my worst moments here on BGG when I tried to defend this point in the comments of a video review for CW that essentially said it was quite similar to CitOW, so there was no point in buying it. Because I am obviously biased (as an employee for PG), when I outlined why the three specific comparisons the reviewer drew weren't very convincing, I was seen as "protesting" and I think it backfired. [I still believe I was far more rational in that whole discussion than the reviewer's responses to my response, as well as the piggy-backed comments, but that's ok]. So, I'm going to decline to share specifics, other than to offer this:

To those who have not played CW much, but think it's too similar to CitOW, here's one easy way to be convinced otherwise (assuming you're open minded devil ). Simply peruse the subforums of both games right here on BGG! You will find radically different threads regarding strategies, rules, play sessions, etc. I think simply reading over these shows pretty definitively (IMHO), that the games are only comparable at a surface level. They feel different, they play different. If you like asymmetric strategy games, there could be room for both on your shelf.

2. Because they are so different - even though this is rarely acknowledged both by those who prefer CitOW as well as by those who prefer CW - some will naturally favor one over the other! We all like different types of games, and we even like different subtypes of larger genres. So, to exactly echo the OP, the problem is not so much "which is better" - as different people will have different answers to that - but rather, hopefully more can see that CW is a strikingly different game from CitOW, even though it is *also* an asymmetric strategy game using an action point system in which you play as an evil god over the destruction of the world. I think that sentence captures virtually all the relevant similarities - the rest is different.

tl;dr, this discussion should focus on the differences, not "which is better." Let each discover that for his own. I believe that in playing CW more than once, it will become clear that it offers deeper gameplay and more interesting player interactions and strategies. CW nearly always sells itself when actually played, but getting people to play it can be an issue.
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shion smith
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gns000 wrote:
jffalaschi wrote:
Cthulhu Wars wish it was as good as CitOW or Forbidden Stars... That's why it has huge minis, to make it up for the average performance...


Actually Cthulhu Wars is one of the best dudes on a map games, and it is way better than CitOW and Forbidden Stars. For me Cthulhu Wars would be the second of the genre, the first one being Kemet... But Cthulhu Wars overproduced components and size is a big turn off for me, I really wish they make a decent standard size version of this amazing game someday (it can still have great minis and high quality components, but not that big). So, I decided not to play Cthulhu Wars anymore and just play Kemet and Cry Havoc these days.


I was reading this thread and thinking Kemet had been overlooked. I actually find Kemet to be my top choice for a slightly longer dudes on map game, Cthulhu wars being my choice for a shorter game. The expansion for Kemet is required for game end condition issues being resolved and fixed my outstanding objections to it. Of course they implemented a level 1 black tile in the expansion that I feel causes a balance issue... but almost perfect. Now to be fair I have all my OS2 stuff coming so I'm comparing Kemet with expansion to core box Cthulhu wars, so not quite apples to apples.

I guess I like about Kemet
1) the fact that you compete for tech tree advances. There's a whole chess game of deciding not to take something very advantageous for you, to stop someone from getting something that would be very very advantageous for them.
1b) There are several meta levels of conflict, the board fighting, positioning on the board, winning combats (very different then positioning), getting VPs, winning the economic war, winning the functionality war, turn order bidding mechanics which impact what cards you'll have to fight with.
2) Since there's a ton of tiles to work together, the amount of subtle differences in overall ability you can create to build decidedly synergistic and unique tactics. Every game is different because a few inoccuous tiles can result in very different functionality to the overall ability of a faction. The overall result is just much more varied.
3) There's a number of different ways to go about trying to solve the economic problem.
4) There's a whole euro game of economics, action pyramid placement and improving your pyramids
5) Victory points don't have a random draw aspect to them.

Cthulhu Wars - has more of a raw straight forward feel to it which I enjoy for that aspect. The tech tree choices however are normally fairly obvious, and order seldom changes that much from game to game. Given factions generally have a certain pre-determined play philosophy, which both adds flavour, but has a bit of sameness to it. The games conflict resolves itself on the board, it has a little less on the multiple layers of conflict front. Now when you add "neutral" spell books in and monsters, this will become a little more significant. There's something I really like about Cthulhu wars but I have a harder time explaining it. Because although it looks like a simple map and area control problem, there is much more to it then that.
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Gabriel N
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shion_ca wrote:
gns000 wrote:
jffalaschi wrote:
Cthulhu Wars wish it was as good as CitOW or Forbidden Stars... That's why it has huge minis, to make it up for the average performance...


Actually Cthulhu Wars is one of the best dudes on a map games, and it is way better than CitOW and Forbidden Stars. For me Cthulhu Wars would be the second of the genre, the first one being Kemet... But Cthulhu Wars overproduced components and size is a big turn off for me, I really wish they make a decent standard size version of this amazing game someday (it can still have great minis and high quality components, but not that big). So, I decided not to play Cthulhu Wars anymore and just play Kemet and Cry Havoc these days.


I was reading this thread and thinking Kemet had been overlooked. I actually find Kemet to be my top choice for a slightly longer dudes on map game, Cthulhu wars being my choice for a shorter game. The expansion for Kemet is required for game end condition issues being resolved and fixed my outstanding objections to it. Of course they implemented a level 1 black tile in the expansion that I feel causes a balance issue... but almost perfect. Now to be fair I have all my OS2 stuff coming so I'm comparing Kemet with expansion to core box Cthulhu wars, so not quite apples to apples.

I guess I like about Kemet
1) the fact that you compete for tech tree advances. There's a whole chess game of deciding not to take something very advantageous for you, to stop someone from getting something that would be very very advantageous for them.
1b) There are several meta levels of conflict, the board fighting, positioning on the board, winning combats (very different then positioning), getting VPs, winning the economic war, winning the functionality war, turn order bidding mechanics which impact what cards you'll have to fight with.
2) Since there's a ton of tiles to work together, the amount of subtle differences in overall ability you can create to build decidedly synergistic and unique tactics. Every game is different because a few inoccuous tiles can result in very different functionality to the overall ability of a faction. The overall result is just much more varied.
3) There's a number of different ways to go about trying to solve the economic problem.
4) There's a whole euro game of economics, action pyramid placement and improving your pyramids
5) Victory points don't have a random draw aspect to them.

Cthulhu Wars - has more of a raw straight forward feel to it which I enjoy for that aspect. The tech tree choices however are normally fairly obvious, and order seldom changes that much from game to game. Given factions generally have a certain pre-determined play philosophy, which both adds flavour, but has a bit of sameness to it. The games conflict resolves itself on the board, it has a little less on the multiple layers of conflict front. Now when you add "neutral" spell books in and monsters, this will become a little more significant. There's something I really like about Cthulhu wars but I have a harder time explaining it. Because although it looks like a simple map and area control problem, there is much more to it then that.


I like a little more Kemet because actions have a limit, and there is no runaway leader because of someone getting a lot of action points. Let me try to explain: Both games have the same sort of "action points" system, so you should pay energy or prayer points in order to do your actions. In Kemet there is a limit to the amount of "action points" you can have per round and you may only take 5 actions. In Cthulhu Wars there is no limit to the "action points" you can have and no limit to actions taken, and although the game tries to balance it out making every other player have at least half the "action points" as the player with the most energy, sometimes the difference is huge and it give advantage to the leader to continue on his unstopable road to victory. Also, the battle system in Kemet is so much better. It is the best battle system ever created for this kind of games.

So, Kemet is a better game and did not needed oversized miniatures, it comes with amazing looking gorgeous creatures made with great quality and detail.
 
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shion smith
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To be fair in Kemet if you get the silver and gold tokens there is a definite sense of having more actions...

I like Cthulhu wars doling out energy and waiting till an opponent can't respond aspect. I find that's an enjoyable part of the strategy. I also like blood rage's addition to it that at a certain point it doesn't matter because there will be a hard end to the turn someone can try to strategically trigger.

I enjoy Cthulhu war's various invulnerabilities, and pre and bost battle effects. I do like the card reveal of kemet better than the dice rolling, but kemet does lose a bit in terms of niftyness that can happen and decisions to be made during the phases of combat.
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Michael Off The Shelf Board Game Reviews
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jffalaschi wrote:
Cthulhu Wars wish it was as good as CitOW or Forbidden Stars... That's why it has huge minis, to make it up for the average performance...


Nah, Chaos has smaller miniatures due to performance anxiety . . .
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Gabriel N
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shion_ca wrote:
To be fair in Kemet if you get the silver and gold tokens there is a definite sense of having more actions...


To be fair in Kemet there are various silver and gold tokens (specially with the black tiles added to the game), and each player can have only one silver action token, so almost everyone has access to them, and is their choice if the get it during the game or not. Also, each silver token grants only one extra action, which does not makes a huge impact on the balance of the game.

shion_ca wrote:
I like Cthulhu wars doling out energy and waiting till an opponent can't respond aspect. I find that's an enjoyable part of the strategy. I also like blood rage's addition to it that at a certain point it doesn't matter because there will be a hard end to the turn someone can try to strategically trigger.


That is what I don't like about Cthulhu Wars, when someone is the runaway leader and has something like 20 energy points, they can wait until everyone spend their energy and then they start taking their real actions (capturing cultists and so), and making the game imposible to win for everyone else, at that point the other players stop enjoying the game... A house rule can be to limit amount of energy points to someting like 14 or 15.

shion_ca wrote:
I enjoy Cthulhu war's various invulnerabilities, and pre and bost battle effects. I do like the card reveal of kemet better than the dice rolling, but kemet does lose a bit in terms of niftyness that can happen and decisions to be made during the phases of combat.


Pre and post battle effects are nice in Cthulhu Wars, but there are also pre and post battle effects in Kemet depending on the tiles you buy. Also I do not understand what you are saying about niftyness and decisions, because Kemet battle system is just excellent and is all about strategic choices.
 
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gns000 wrote:

That is what I don't like about Cthulhu Wars, when someone is the runaway leader and has something like 20 energy points, they can wait until everyone spend their energy and then they start taking their real actions (capturing cultists and so), and making the game imposible to win for everyone else, at that point the other players stop enjoying the game... A house rule can be to limit amount of energy points to someting like 14 or 15.


Part of the game is knowing how to spot when someone is running away. There's almost no hidden information, so you can always see where the game is going.

That might sound like a cop-out answer, but even so, I was once 2 Doom Points from winning with six gates and Red sign. The rest of the players turned on me. Even with my advantage in points they still destroyed me. I didn't get any more Doom Points that game and came in last place. And that's a pretty common situation with runaway leaders.
Players need to know when to coordinate together and when to be selfish.
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Peter Bowie
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davidryanandersson wrote:
That might sound like a cop-out answer, but even so, I was once 2 Doom Points from winning with six gates and Red sign. The rest of the players turned on me. Even with my advantage in points they still destroyed me. I didn't get any more Doom Points that game and came in last place. And that's a pretty common situation with runaway leaders.
Players need to know when to coordinate together and when to be selfish.


That's completely true. I lost a game (against newbies, no less) because I overextended too soon, and got ravaged on the cusp of victory. I'm reminded of Power Grid, wherein it's bad to be winning - because you have to go first in auctions and last in everything else.

Cthulhu Wars fired Kemet for me, so I consider them to have much more in common (being power point system games, with mostly open information and big monsters with strong effects, and instant combat).

In comparison, Chaos in the Old World has lots of hidden information, more randomness and subtlety, is a lot more meta dependent (depending on certain factions to work in a certain way against other factions). It also has the whole different win conditions going on, which I quite like.

But I much prefer Cthulhu Wars. For one, it's way easier to get to the table with a shorter play time, more accessible game play, and player count scaling. Second, I love games with big powers, Mottainai also being a favourite. Third, I prefer games on the more deterministic side of the fence, and despite the presence of dice and the Elder Sign chits, Cthulhu Wars never feels that random. It's definitely more of a strategy game than a tactical one.
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Arthur Petersen
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C3Gaming wrote:
davidryanandersson wrote:
That might sound like a cop-out answer, but even so, I was once 2 Doom Points from winning with six gates and Red sign. The rest of the players turned on me. Even with my advantage in points they still destroyed me. I didn't get any more Doom Points that game and came in last place. And that's a pretty common situation with runaway leaders.
Players need to know when to coordinate together and when to be selfish.


That's completely true. I lost a game (against newbies, no less) because I overextended too soon, and got ravaged on the cusp of victory. I'm reminded of Power Grid, wherein it's bad to be winning - because you have to go first in auctions and last in everything else.

Cthulhu Wars fired Kemet for me, so I consider them to have much more in common (being power point system games, with mostly open information and big monsters with strong effects, and instant combat).

In comparison, Chaos in the Old World has lots of hidden information, more randomness and subtlety, is a lot more meta dependent (depending on certain factions to work in a certain way against other factions). It also has the whole different win conditions going on, which I quite like.

But I much prefer Cthulhu Wars. For one, it's way easier to get to the table with a shorter play time, more accessible game play, and player count scaling. Second, I love games with big powers, Mottainai also being a favourite. Third, I prefer games on the more deterministic side of the fence, and despite the presence of dice and the Elder Sign chits, Cthulhu Wars never feels that random. It's definitely more of a strategy game than a tactical one.


Waaaait a minute. Did you just draw a simple and straightforward comparison between CW and Khemet? That's not allowed here. You can only glibly compare CW with CitOW. Clearly no other two games are so similar. For shame. Even worse that you would dare claim that Khemet and CW are EVEN more similar than CW and CitOW! Are you literally, mad, man?

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existoid wrote:
Waaaait a minute. Did you just draw a simple and straightforward comparison between CW and Khemet? That's not allowed here. You can only glibly compare CW with CitOW. Clearly no other two games are so similar. For shame. Even worse that you would dare claim that Khemet and CW are EVEN more similar than CW and CitOW! Are you literally, mad, man?


I found the Yellow Sign. (And swear that I must read some HP Lovecraft prior to OS3, so I can make more appropriate responses.)

I'll even take it a step further and say Blood Rage and Cry Havoc have more in common with CitOW than Cthulhu Wars does.
 
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C3Gaming wrote:
existoid wrote:
Waaaait a minute. Did you just draw a simple and straightforward comparison between CW and Khemet? That's not allowed here. You can only glibly compare CW with CitOW. Clearly no other two games are so similar. For shame. Even worse that you would dare claim that Khemet and CW are EVEN more similar than CW and CitOW! Are you literally, mad, man?


I found the Yellow Sign. (And swear that I must read some HP Lovecraft prior to OS3, so I can make more appropriate responses.)

I'll even take it a step further and say Blood Rage and Cry Havoc have more in common that CitOW than Cthulhu Wars does.



HERETIC!

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Mark Grubich
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I've played most of the games mentioned here and while I like Forbidden Stars, CitOW, Kemet, and Blood Rage, Cthulhu Wars beats them all for me and this is with just the basic game and a friend that has expansion factions and some of the monsters and independent GOOs.

CW tends to be close, I've won or lost by only a couple of points several times since even when someone pulls ahead they tend to get hammered by the others and brought down to size. I really am looking forward to getting all the stuff and the massive variations we can have with more maps and options.

I've found Blood Rage and Kemet to be very formulaic and they tend to fall into the same ruts when we play; in Bloodrage it's: "Oh someone has the wolfman? total shock!", in Kemet certain cards like the one where you can discard DI cards for bonuses in combat are almost mandatory to do well. Obviously certain strategies in Cthulhu Wars are going to be used often but I've never felt a game falls into a rut I've seen before and we've played CW more than any of the others.

My biggest issue in CitOW was when I was playing Khorne and the others needed me to hit Nurgle hard and the event cards precluded me from attacking him at all in certain areas and with only limited dice in the other(s) so the event cards virtually handed him the game. I still enjoy the game overall though.

In Forbidden Stars the warp storms have been my bane every time I've played so I don't mind not playing it again although I will since deep down i do like it overall despite this!

Cthulhu Wars is much more than opulence of components despite an earlier comment to the contrary; its a solid game that appeals to a large chunk of our game group. It plays well, luck matters but doesn't rule it, lots of variety in the factions, easy to learn the basics, etc. Even those like me that prefer very heavy war games (I love Star Fleet Battles and World in Flames for example) love CW, even with the price tag and premium storage space it takes up!
 
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Peter Bowie
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Grumsh wrote:
HERETIC!


I'm disappointed you don't own Millennium Blades. I shall tut at you.

Tut.
 
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In to the lion's den....

CW and CitOW are both games that I enjoy very much. And they are different, quite different in some areas.

But they are more similar to each other, as a whole, than they are to any other games.

As for the OP, I hope that FFG re-themes CitOW and produces a version with graphic design and map art that makes the game easier to play...

Just like I hope PG one day decides to print a core CW game with small minis and a modest footprint...

I expecting to be left hoping on both those counts, though...
 
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Reverend Lovejay
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lamaros wrote:
...

Just like I hope PG one day decides to print a core CW game with small minis and a modest footprint...

I expecting to be left hoping on both those counts, though...


Look around, I believe Arthur made a comment about small form factors in a thread
 
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