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Bum Kim
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In the first Kickstarter, one of the things that really made backers angry was the fact that items were available at retail before backers received their copy. In fact, many people on the forums are swearing off from backing the current KS and choosing to buy it at retail (and some even saying they will never give a penny to the Frogs again). As the game was delayed and had subsequent waves of release, there became an annual complaint at the time of every Gencon about the fact that others could buy what backers had to wait to receive.

I have no idea what the Frogs are intending for this KS but if the past is any indication, I'm guessing that at least the base game will be for sale starting at Gencon 2017 before fulfillment to us backers. If this is going to upset you, cancel your pledge and buy it retail! If your top priority is getting the game first, then you don't want to be a KS backer.

Here are some other KS assumptions that you need to think through so you aren't disappointed:

1. Game delay (this is a risk for most KS campaigns--can anyone say "Kingdom Death Monster"?)

2. Lack of communication -- do not expect the Frogs to be like the developers of Scythe, Gloomhaven or most recently, Mechs vs. Minions where they are regularly engaged on these forums here at BGG.

3. Miniature assembly -- if you aren't a mini enthusiast, find a friend who can assemble your minis. (People also complained about the lack of detail in wave 1 but it seems the Frogs have figured this out.)

I am a Minecart backer from the first KS and am going all-in at Shogun with FoFo. This is because I don't care if this is available for retail before I receive it because my highest priority is getting a cost saving over getting the game first. (Minecart is proving to be an INSANE deal over retail, likely around $1K even at discount retail prices--Shogun might be saving me a couple hundred dollars if the KS reaches $1M.) Also,

1. When I back a game, I forget about it and like to be surprised with a box on my porch sometime in the future. Except for CMON, most games I have backed have been delayed. Also, at least the Frogs shipped in waves rather than waiting for everything to ship at once in order for them to save money.

2. Again, I don't need a lot of communication as long as I know they are going to produce a game I enjoy playing. I have been pleased with the expansions providing interesting game-play rather than just throwing more minis at me (people currently complaining about Conan and the fact that there are no uses for the extra minis yet).

3. Yeah, I'm sort of a minis enthusiast.

Say what you will about how the Frogs run their KS campaigns but for me, the fact that they spent the necessary time to make for a very good game with better-than-expected expansions and haven't been IP nazis allowing for a lot of fan-made stuff show that they are gamers first and not just trying to squeeze every dime out of its fans. I know others disagree and I understand their frustration with it going to retail since this wasn't communicated up front. But this is the second time around and know what you are getting in to and choose to back or wait for retail based on what your priorities are.

Without being snarky, are there other assumptions I missed that would be good for a new KS backer to know?
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Ross Allen
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I think there is enough stuff from the first KS for the 18 month timeframe that they wont be releasing this at retail before backers receive it. I say this because they have yet to release 2 other worlds, 1 being a deluxe otherworld, my prediction March will se derelict ship at retail and gen con Blasted wastes, with mission packs and other deluxe enemy packs and card packs between those.

They also have LNOE 10th anniversary in 2017, so less SoB stuff would make sense.

Is this guarenteed? No, and I hope they clarify. With the first KS backers (except Oz backers due to bad shipping method choices) got the Base sets before retail did and this project i would guess will be the same.

I do agree about their communication, they will not communicate with backers they fundimentally believe this is a waste of time as the updates they do are massive and takes hours to do and they wont hear that all we want is one or two lines in the chat so we can see whats going on.
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Magic Pink
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bumyong wrote:

Say what you will about how the Frogs run their KS campaigns but for me, the fact that they spent the necessary time to make for a very good game with better-than-expected expansions and haven't been IP nazis allowing for a lot of fan-made stuff show that they are gamers first and not just trying to squeeze every dime out of its fans.


Except it's not a very good game, it's horribly unbalanced and requires a ton of house rules to fix and they HAVE been IP Nazis, remember all the neat cards people were making back during launch? Remember how they got C&Dd?

I think you're in denial.
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Bum Kim
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Magic Pink wrote:
Except it's not a very good game...

Clearly a difference in opinion. I'm not trying to convince others to like the game nor am I trying to convince them to back FoFo.

Magic Pink wrote:
...they HAVE been IP Nazis, remember all the neat cards people were making back during launch? Remember how they got C&Dd?

Again, a difference in opinion. The only cards they C&D'd that I remember are the Injury and Mutation cards. All of the town gear cards, money, XP and even template that Klutz made for fan-made monsters are readily available. The best fan-made item is Hexcrawl that uses the exact same template as the original adventure books.

Magic Pink wrote:
I think you're in denial.

I'm okay with being in denial about something as menial as a board game.

Magic Pink, I'm not trying to convince people like you who don't like the game nor are legitimately disgruntled with FFG to change their minds. It's totally cool for you not to buy the game. I even think your complaints are totally legit. I'm just trying to help new backers to know what to expect so that they don't become disappointed and angry later on.
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Matthew Vantries
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Magic Pink wrote:
bumyong wrote:

Say what you will about how the Frogs run their KS campaigns but for me, the fact that they spent the necessary time to make for a very good game with better-than-expected expansions and haven't been IP nazis allowing for a lot of fan-made stuff show that they are gamers first and not just trying to squeeze every dime out of its fans.


Except it's not a very good game, it's horribly unbalanced and requires a ton of house rules to fix and they HAVE been IP Nazis, remember all the neat cards people were making back during launch? Remember how they got C&Dd?

I think you're in denial.

1- Tons of people enjoy the game immensely despite the fact that it's "not a very good game". I think complaining about using house-rules in this game is like saying that people play Pathfinder Roleplaying Game wrong if they don't use every single rule all the time and exactly as written.

2- They only C&Dd those cards because they were just a reproduction of existing rules. They've never demanded that any creative stuff be taken down.
Even if you don't like that they did that, they're hardly "IP nazis".
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Njorl
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bumyong wrote:
Magic Pink wrote:
Except it's not a very good game...

Clearly a difference in opinion. I'm not trying to convince others to like the game nor am I trying to convince them to back FoFo.

Magic Pink wrote:
...they HAVE been IP Nazis, remember all the neat cards people were making back during launch? Remember how they got C&Dd?

Again, a difference in opinion. The only cards they C&D'd that I remember are the Injury and Mutation cards. All of the town gear cards, money, XP and even template that Klutz made for fan-made monsters are readily available. The best fan-made item is Hexcrawl that uses the exact same template as the original adventure books.

Magic Pink wrote:
I think you're in denial.

I'm okay with being in denial about something as menial as a board game.

Magic Pink, I'm not trying to convince people like you who don't like the game nor are legitimately disgruntled with FFG to change their minds. It's totally cool for you not to buy the game. I even think your complaints are totally legit. I'm just trying to help new backers to know what to expect so that they don't become disappointed and angry later on.


The game has a high enough rating to be considered a very good game. The "official" description of very good is the following:

8 - Very good. Like to play, will probably suggest it, will never turn it down.

I think for a lot of people this is the low end of their rating. The one thing I would give this game over many others is the customizable aspect that we are only scratching the surface of. I won't go into a long discussion of this since I've done that many times.

As far as the IP stranglehold, they are really missing the boat on this. They have at least turned a relative blind eye to things, but it's a shame that they don't realize the opportunity of embracing how much the popularity of the game is increased by availability of these cards. As an example of this, I can guarantee that they have gained more money then they have lost from the limited availability of town items, money, XP cards, etc.

From a rational perspective, there are almost 200 town items currently. We know that FFP sell their card packs at about $10 for 15 cards. There is no way they could parcel out the town items in such a way as to make this model viable. I believe their only viable model would be town item card packs of 100 cards. And of course this brings us to where the third party availability would conflict. However, I would go so far as to say that it needs our custom content in order for the game to be fully realized.

There is a spectrum of business impact of user-made content that spans very negative, to very positive. On the very negative side, you can put the hero classes and enemies, on the very positive side, you have Hex-Crawl. Hex-Crawl is made from an eco-sytem of commercial content, enjoyment, enthusiasm, and fan-made content. Each of those four elements are absolutely 100% essential for Hex-Crawl to exist. I cannot stress enough that if you remove any one of those, you remove Hex-Crawl. You do that, you lose out on sales, popularity, and the backbone of cusomizability and expandability that is crucial to this games positive rating.

As far as the "cease and desist", I believe there has been no official legal notice. However, there have been messages like the following response in the FOFOForums yesterday

"@ Tullis “Thank you for answering. Would you reconsider allowing people to upload custom card for town items, conditions ect print-files to BGG in the meantime?” - Unfortunately there are some legal copyright ramifications of ‘allowing’ people to share our material, and selling someone else’s copyrighted material is bad news."

Oh, and by the way "FOFOForums", yep that's mine, if you want to use the word without spaces, ping me and I'll give you permission.
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Ken H.
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Quote:
I am a Minecart backer from the first KS and am going all-in at Shogun with FoFo. This is because I don't care if this is available for retail before I receive it because my highest priority is getting a cost saving over getting the game first.


Same here. Getting it first would be nice, but isn't required (and also was never promised, ever. Ever.)

The savings off retail is great. And I also like getting the KS exclusive characters. Outlaw is my favorite character from the original KS.

On top of that, I just like supporting the company and the game. I'm a huge FFP fan, and Shadows of Brimstone is by far my favorite game. It's a fantastic game. No custom rules are "required", although they have certainly been encouraged -- part of the appeal of the game, in my opinion.

Quote:

2. Again, I don't need a lot of communication as long as I know they are going to produce a game I enjoy playing. I have been pleased with the expansions providing interesting game-play rather than just throwing more minis at me (people currently complaining about Conan and the fact that there are no uses for the extra minis yet).


Their communication seemed fine to me. I admit I've never been involved in other kickstarters, so I don't know what other developers do. But I see no point in constant weekly updates. The game is 18 months away, if not longer -- just let them do their work.

Quote:
Without being snarky, are there other assumptions I missed that would be good for a new KS backer to know?


Their first KS was met with whiner-rage from day 1 because of the tiered structure of pledge amounts and the dollar difference between them. It made it so late-comers (even a day late) were paying $25 or more over what an earlier pledger paid. They later fixed it with a massive give away of free stuff ($75 dollars value in most cases), but it got them off to a rocky start.

They have avoided that stumble this time, so it is clear they learned from the 1st experience. Based on that, I think some of the assumptions may not be warranted. Of course, there's no way to know yet.


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J M
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Compared to CMON, who throw up almost everything (certainly everything in the rule books, etc) for free online, FFP does look draconian when it comes to allowing distribution of things like enemy stats or, heaven forbid, character class specs.
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Adam Canning
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AceAceBaby wrote:
Compared to CMON, who throw up almost everything (certainly everything in the rule books, etc) for free online, FFP does look draconian when it comes to allowing distribution of things like enemy stats or, heaven forbid, character class specs.


CMON's Zombicide rulebooks are redacted to remove the scenarios.
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Frank La Terra
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I'm getting rather tired of some of the Bullshit getting spun around here.

People make out like stuff got sold only a month before backers received their stuff (like happens in many other KS) - this is a lie, stuff will have been out in retail for over a year (if not more) before I receive it. So don't make out like it is just some backers having a sook, any reasonable person would agree there is room for complaint.

This is easily the 2nd worst KS that I have backed.

1) What year did I buy this again? I still haven't received anything beyond the base boxes (which were late back then.) Oh I could have gotten some stuff if I payed some exorbitant amount of money to them for shipping, can't expect them to honor their shipping commitments after all.

2) Multi part models were not mentioned at all during the KS. These models are worse than what amature KS companies can come up with. Then to fix it they switch some of the models to resin. What a fuck-up.

3) Here is an expensive teir to get all in. Except it's not really all in because we can't plan our line properly and seemingly just made shit up on the spot, putting no obvious thought into how we were going to package everything. So now my 'all in' pledge is going to have holes in it which I will have to pay extra for (or get double dipped at retail since I'll have parts of an expansion.) Can't wait to see how much they are going to sting me for these, cause I smell "recoup losses".

It amazes me that FFP who were already a boardgame company could fuck this up so much when amateurs can deliver. Looking at forbidden fortress I'm not convinced they have learned anything since they are following the exact same model again!
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Eric Harman
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
wah! Wah! Wah! I'm salty about paying 30℅ of retail price and didn't want to fork out another $50 to get 1.5 shipping
 
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Frank La Terra
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Cooperton wrote:
Mr Skeletor wrote:
wah! Wah! Wah! I'm salty about paying 30℅ of retail price and didn't want to fork out another $50 to get 1.5 shipping


Shipping for me wasn't $50.
But don't let facts get in the way of your abuse.
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Scott M.
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Cooperton wrote:
Mr Skeletor wrote:
wah! Wah! Wah! I'm salty about paying 30℅ of retail price and didn't want to fork out another $50 to get 1.5 shipping


HE would have to pay shipping to Australia and that was over $100 iirc...

Sorry Coop... Flame fail...shake
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Loïc THUILLIER
France
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120$ to EU too
Game isn't perfect, but kind of the best in his categorie.

backers will have all part in few months now.

so now you know it's a game you will wait, but you will have it and take lot of pleasure with it. for new backers it's Something interesting.

+ you forget to say backer version is 30% retail. so waiting isn't that bad. and you can sell it if you hate, you will make gains.
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Dean Love
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
I'm getting rather tired of some of the Bullshit getting spun around here.

People make out like stuff got sold only a month before backers received their stuff (like happens in many other KS) - this is a lie, stuff will have been out in retail for over a year (if not more) before I receive it. So don't make out like it is just some backers having a sook, any reasonable person would agree there is room for complaint.


It depends what you value. For everyone who backed and would have rather waited for retail and paid 3x as much to get it earlier, there are two other people who are buying at retail and wish they had backed, as they're less fussed about when it arrives.
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John
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Deano2099 wrote:
Mr Skeletor wrote:
I'm getting rather tired of some of the Bullshit getting spun around here.

People make out like stuff got sold only a month before backers received their stuff (like happens in many other KS) - this is a lie, stuff will have been out in retail for over a year (if not more) before I receive it. So don't make out like it is just some backers having a sook, any reasonable person would agree there is room for complaint.


It depends what you value. For everyone who backed and would have rather waited for retail and paid 3x as much to get it earlier, there are two other people who are buying at retail and wish they had backed, as they're less fussed about when it arrives.


I piggy backed an outlaw and bought everything that wasn't included at retail. I wish I would have gone in at mine cart from the begining.

I do understand the frustration from non US backers and this could have all been avoided if shipping had been planned better. I am hoping that isn't an issue again but if it is the reduction in price will be worth it. As we currently have a ton of content and my group will be playing this long into the future.

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Ben Turner
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without just typing out everything Mr Skeletor posted, basically yeah, mixing up a "slightly delayed" KS campaign with the multi-year delays on this one (not to mention the multi-month lag in Aussie backers getting the base games) is at best naive, at worst insulting.

I'm in on the new one - after all, I've still got all of wave 2 to look forward to later this year in about 6 months time, lets be honest.

But let's not pretend the old campaign's continued failure to deliver years after retail compares to any CMON campaign's slight delays.
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Bum Kim
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Phantomwhale wrote:
without just typing out everything Mr Skeletor posted, basically yeah, mixing up a "slightly delayed" KS campaign with the multi-year delays on this one (not to mention the multi-month lag in Aussie backers getting the base games) is at best naive, at worst insulting.

Not trying to insult you mate. I hope I'm making myself clear that I totally understand others' anger and reasons for complaint. Especially for Australian backers, the shipping was a fiasco and any sane person would be frustrated. I wouldn't have paid for the 1.5 shipping and would be angry as well that after 2 years, I only have the core sets.

But the fact that you are backing FoFo even after this bad experience sort of proves my point--NOW THAT YOU KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT from backing a Frogs game, you aren't going to be surprised if it is available for retail before backers receive their copy, if there are long delays or if the minis are sub-par.

It's sort of like the difference between dating a stranger and dating someone you already know--the former you don't know what kind of crazy they are but the latter you do. In this post, I'm like the middle guy who is informing a friend interested in dating another friend:

FRIEND: Tell me about SooJin. She's so hot!
ME: Yeah, I know she is pretty but she is never on time.
FRIEND: I don't care about that.
ME: And she barely speaks English.
FRIEND: Love is the universal language.
ME: And she wants to date Bill and Steve first before giving you a chance.
FRIEND: Well, I'm willing to give it a try.
ME: Okay, but don't come complaining to me later. I warned you.

It's all about managing expectations.

I will say there is another Kickstarter that was even more late than Shadows of Brimstone--Kingdom Death Monster. At the end of the day though, most backers were okay with the three-year delay because of how awesome the game ended up being. (This is my only perfect 10 rated game in my collection.) Now Shadows of Brimstone is no KDM and so you are going to have more disgruntled backers. But like I said above, the game play in my humble opinion, more than makes up for all the other craziness. But just because I'm willing to keep dating this hot mess, doesn't mean anyone else has to. You wouldn't be the only person to call me naive.

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Bum Kim
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Just found this on the comments page of the KS:

Flying Frog wrote:
The Sheriff (of Brimstone) wrote:
will this product be provided to conference attendees ahead of KS backers?

I can’t say for sure what the timeline is going to be like. Is it possible? Sure. A lot of just comes down to when things are complete and if we do convention Pick Ups.

I think this answer says, "If it is ready, we will make it available for sale before backers receive their copy." But there does seem to be a question of whether or not it will actually be ready.

Hard to say though if it will as they also said this:
Flying Frog wrote:
Not sure yet if the Blasted Wastes is going to be available (outside of KS backer’s Wave 2) in 2017.

So if even Blasted Wastes won't be available, then I can't see why they would rush to get FoFo done before a product that is ready for delivery for backers in a couple months.

Who knows? My original warning stands--be ready that FFP might sell FoFo before backers receive.

EDIT: Here's the source for my quotes:
https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/1034852783/comments
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Erin Burke

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I'm gonna be honest - something about locking an entire exclusive character class behind a $300 pledge wall rubs me the wrong way.

I don't love KS exclusives under the best of circumstances, but I understand why companies use them. Requiring a pledge of $300 for access to one, though...I mean, that's not a small amount of cash.
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Angelus Seniores
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EmpressInYellow wrote:
I'm gonna be honest - something about locking an entire exclusive character class behind a $300 pledge wall rubs me the wrong way.

I don't love KS exclusives under the best of circumstances, but I understand why companies use them. Requiring a pledge of $300 for access to one, though...I mean, that's not a small amount of cash.


the exclusive characters are a free bonus on top of the game and expansions/extras.

its only normal to get a special bonus for investing 300$ 19 months in advance.
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Erin Burke

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Angelsenior wrote:
EmpressInYellow wrote:
I'm gonna be honest - something about locking an entire exclusive character class behind a $300 pledge wall rubs me the wrong way.

I don't love KS exclusives under the best of circumstances, but I understand why companies use them. Requiring a pledge of $300 for access to one, though...I mean, that's not a small amount of cash.


the exclusive characters are a free bonus on top of the game and expansions/extras.

its only normal to get a special bonus for investing 300$ 19 months in advance.


Looking back over the many KS projects I've ever watched or backed, this isn't generally the case.

While it's true that some projects will tie actual exclusive game content to higher pledge tiers, the difference in cost is not usually anything near $200. The things you see tied to that kind of cost difference are usually "prestige" items like signed art pieces, the ability to design an item in the game, etc.

But whatever. It's their show and they can run it however they like. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
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navajas
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Fool me once shame on... y..., me?

Fool me twice... shame on... fool me, ya can't git fooled again.
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Angelus Seniores
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its not like you pay 200$ for the exclusive, you pay for the other stuff you're getting.

exclusives are always meant to be a special addition that is not available in retail, only to backers.
sure some KS use plenty of exclusives, some you need to pay for and can choose regardless how much you pledge, ie there's many ways its applied.

SOB uses very little exclusives and mostly goes for a discount on the game material you get instead. some people dont like too many exclusives as it makes the retail version feel an inferior version.

if they were just a paid addon, they would quickly turn into money grabs on ebay which happens for most other KS exclusives.

here you can choose for the 100$ level exclusive (sumo wrestler) or the 300$ level exclusive (both sumo and daimyo), I prefer this way
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Joe Price
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Most projects I've seen don't have an "all inclusive (or nearly so)" pledge level either. You typically have a base pledge and a "deluxe" pledge with slight better costs and then a pile of add-ons to go with the regular stretch goals. I have also seen a number of projects where stretch goals were gated on your pledge - after all, if you don't order the expansion that's included in the deluxe package what good does an extra widget that only works with the expansion do for you? Not to mention the logistics nightmare of dealing with individual cards or models.

What FFP has basically done is combine the "deluxe" concept with the "all inclusive" to get rid of add-ons (which are a significant cost contributor for manufacturing and for shipping due to packing costs). So you're not buying exclusive game content, you're pre-buying add-ons in one package. That's a single SKU for KS manufacturing and shipping purposes. That's, right now, a couple thousand packages all exactly the same. That's HUGE.

Boardgame kickstarters, especially miniature based ones, function on economy of scale - the biggest hurdle is the initial cost of setup, each unit is much less expensive. That's how stretch goals work - as more units are made, less of the funds for each subsequent unit pays for that unit meaning more funds available to produce more things. Pretty much the reason why the concept of a group buy works.

Anyway, it's up to you how much your money is worth - but if you're looking at cost of product, Shogun is or will soon be worth more than Sumo+add-ons. Once (if) Shogun is worth more than that, I expect to see a slide from Sumo to Shogun. Once Shogun is worth some significant amount more than paid, it will probably snowball. But just like a snowball, if critical mass isn't reached, it will melt away flat. Right now, those of us with Shogun pledges are betting it's going to hit those high values. The telling point will really be the last two days - if the value is high enough there will be a spike as higher or higher than the first day's value, making the value even better for everyone. But if that value point isn't reached for most people, because of how this is structured, it may very well collapse completely.
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