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Mega Civilization» Forums » Rules

Subject: conflict after calamities/special abilities rss

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Peter Schott
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Paragraph 11 starts with:
"In those rare occasions that there is a conflict situation ..."
I understand very well how the game works, but I cannot think of any situation where there could be conflict after calamities and special abilities.
In the conflict phase, every possible conflict is fought out. Now there are only tokens that do not exceed population limits. Calamities only reduce the number of tokens, but do not move them. Special abilities let some tokens change owners, but do not generate more. Diaspora can never move tokens to areas where they exceed population limits.
I know that there can be surplus populations when tokens get annexed of an owner with agriculture, and the new owner does not have agriculture.
But how on earth can a new conflict situation arise?
This is only an academic question, but I still would like to have an answer
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JR Honeycutt
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I imagine there is some situation where players may have annexed some number of tokens, and in doing so voided the Agriculture bonus and caused a conflict somewhere.
 
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Peter Schott
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I thought of that too.
But usually, you either annex the whole area - and might have a surplus token when not holding agriculture, but that is not a conflict.
Or you annex a part of an area with mixed population - but in that case, the agriculture bonus is void in the first place, and there are no more than the printed max of tokens there anyway, thus not creating a conflict.
 
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Cheb
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I've been pondering this all morning!

I don't think that's it, because there aren't any abilities or calamities which let you annex only some of the units in an area - it's all or nothing. I'll keep thinking!

edit - ninja
 
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Flo de Haan
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pethulhu wrote:
Paragraph 11 starts with:
"In those rare occasions that there is a conflict situation ..."
I understand very well how the game works, but I cannot think of any situation where there could be conflict after calamities and special abilities.
In the conflict phase, every possible conflict is fought out. Now there are only tokens that do not exceed population limits. Calamities only reduce the number of tokens, but do not move them. Special abilities let some tokens change owners, but do not generate more. Diaspora can never move tokens to areas where they exceed population limits.
I know that there can be surplus populations when tokens get annexed of an owner with agriculture, and the new owner does not have agriculture.
But how on earth can a new conflict situation arise?
This is only an academic question, but I still would like to have an answer


Hey, though it's RARE, it still occurs. After the many many many games we've played during testing we had some situations occuring. That's why we put this here.

I just posted a reply on the resolution of Civil War somewhere here.
There I mentioned two lines in the rulebook regarding: being unable to select exactly X tokens.

copy/paste:
Page 34 (General):
On those occasions where a player can only comply if
he exceeds the amount required, he must do so.

Page 36 (Civil War specific):
If the primary victim cannot make the exact selection, the rule
may be broken in the following way: 1. In each area all units
belonging to the primary victim must be selected. 2. The areas
selected must be adjacent to each other. 3. The selected units must
be exactly the number to comply. 4. The beneficiary must be able
to annex all units in the combination selected.

Now at rule breaker 1 can cause some situations.
For example when using this in combination with Public Works.
If someone annexes the city but not the token for example.

That will result in conflict (an unsuccesful city attack)

There are some more exceptions, but it happens more than you might expect. I've seen about 10 of this situations happening before.



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JR Honeycutt
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Flodehaan wrote:
pethulhu wrote:
Paragraph 11 starts with:
"In those rare occasions that there is a conflict situation ..."
I understand very well how the game works, but I cannot think of any situation where there could be conflict after calamities and special abilities.
In the conflict phase, every possible conflict is fought out. Now there are only tokens that do not exceed population limits. Calamities only reduce the number of tokens, but do not move them. Special abilities let some tokens change owners, but do not generate more. Diaspora can never move tokens to areas where they exceed population limits.
I know that there can be surplus populations when tokens get annexed of an owner with agriculture, and the new owner does not have agriculture.
But how on earth can a new conflict situation arise?
This is only an academic question, but I still would like to have an answer


Hey, though it's RARE, it still occurs. After the many many many games we've played during testing we had some situations occuring. That's why we put this here.

I just posted a reply on the resolution of Civil War somewhere here.
There I mentioned two lines in the rulebook regarding: being unable to select exactly X tokens.

copy/paste:
Page 34 (General):
On those occasions where a player can only comply if
he exceeds the amount required, he must do so.

Page 36 (Civil War specific):
If the primary victim cannot make the exact selection, the rule
may be broken in the following way: 1. In each area all units
belonging to the primary victim must be selected. 2. The areas
selected must be adjacent to each other. 3. The selected units must
be exactly the number to comply. 4. The beneficiary must be able
to annex all units in the combination selected.

Now at rule breaker 1 can cause some situations.
For example when using this in combination with Public Works.
If someone annexes the city but not the token for example.

That will result in conflict (an unsuccesful city attack)

There are some more exceptions, but it happens more than you might expect. I've seen about 10 of this situations happening before.





Flo, in this situation, why wouldn't the player simply also annex the City? Wouldn't that count as "all of the units in the territory"?
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Cheb
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Hi Flo! I was hoping you'd show up

The text for Public Works says:
" If your city is annexed or destroyed due to a tax revolt or calamity the additional token is destroyed. "

So I'd have assumed the token disappears at the time of annexing the city, and so is not around afterwards to cause a conflict.

 
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Peter Schott
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From reading all explanations in the forums here, I thought that under all circumstances all of the units in one area (including a city and a token there due to public works) must be annexed. There is no exception. If the situation arises that this can't be done by the given numbers of annexed tokens at all, this number must be exceeded, so that the beneficiary gets more tokens than usually.
Am I wrong?
If I am not wrong, no conflict can arise.
 
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Peter Schott
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greendayfan333 wrote:
Hi Flo! I was hoping you'd show up

The text for Public Works says:
" If your city is annexed or destroyed due to a tax revolt or calamity the additional token is destroyed. "

So I'd have assumed the token disappears at the time of annexing the city, and so is not around afterwards to cause a conflict.


I didn't notice this. Thanks.
But it even more leads to no conflicts
 
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Peter Schott
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So, this means, in a civil war/tyranny I just annex the city for 5 points and disregard the additional token? Or what? Now I get confused.
 
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Flo de Haan
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pethulhu wrote:
So, this means, in a civil war/tyranny I just annex the city for 5 points and disregard the additional token? Or what? Now I get confused.


Oops. I meant the opposite. My bad!

The token is annexed.

If the city is annexed, the token is destroyed. that's right.
But if the token is annexed, the city is still there. We wouldn't let someone destroy a city by just annexing 1 token. (or 2-3 in a row this way)
 
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Cheb
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Flodehaan wrote:
pethulhu wrote:
So, this means, in a civil war/tyranny I just annex the city for 5 points and disregard the additional token? Or what? Now I get confused.


Oops. I meant the opposite. My bad!

The token is annexed.

If the city is annexed, the token is destroyed. that's right.
But if the token is annexed, the city is still there. We wouldn't let someone destroy a city by just annexing 1 token. (or 2-3 in a row this way)


I think I'm missing something - I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm trying to understand, honest!

In Civil War you have to annex ALL units in an area, even if it goes above the amount needed (assuming you can't do it any other way and still keep areas adjacent).

In what situation could you ever only annex the token and not the city?

Thank you, I have an 18 player game on Sunday so I want to make sure we are playing it correctly!!
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Peter Schott
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????
Now I get really confused.
A part of an area can be annexed? Like annexing the token and not the city?
I thought under all circumstances all units/tokens in an area had to be annexed, even if this means annexing more tokens than allowed (if there is no other way).
I don't get it. Sorry.
 
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Peter Schott
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Hey Cheb - I have the same question and I plan to play this game soon.
My "?" don't refer to your question
 
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Cheb
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pethulhu wrote:
Hey Cheb - I have the same question and I plan to play this game soon.
My "?" don't refer to your question


Ha I understand - we are both confused about this!!
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Flo de Haan
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General rules say:
If you cannot comply, but only by exceeding the amount, you should exceed.
But now... Civil War has this additional rule as mentioned on page 36 which allows you to deny the above. Same is true for Tyranny btw.

If you have to select 15 units, but you are unable to following the rules, but there are sufficient targets, you may break the default rule in order.

In that example, let's say tyranny, you select 14 units first and then for the fifteenth unit point let's say you can only select from areas containing two tokens or an area with a city and a token, you are allowed to annex that single token in the area with the city rather than a single of two tokens in another area.

 
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Peter Schott
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I'm sorry, but there is a contradiction here, or I just plain don't get it.

Referring to Civil War and Tyranny, it must be either A or B:

A) I try to take the calculated number of tokens in adjacent areas. I always have to take all units in an area. If I can't take the calculated number by any means, I must exceed the number to fit the "take all the units" rule.

B) I try to take the calculated number of tokens in adjacent areas. I always have to take all units in an area. If I can't take the calculated number by any means, there is one area left where not all units are taken. Thus, the calculated number is never exceeded.

So, what is it?
 
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Flo de Haan
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pethulhu wrote:
I'm sorry, but there is a contradiction here, or I just plain don't get it.

Referring to Civil War and Tyranny, it must be either A or B:

A) I try to take the calculated number of tokens in adjacent areas. I always have to take all units in an area. If I can't take the calculated number by any means, I must exceed the number to fit the "take all the units" rule.

B) I try to take the calculated number of tokens in adjacent areas. I always have to take all units in an area. If I can't take the calculated number by any means, there is one area left where not all units are taken. Thus, the calculated number is never exceeded.

So, what is it?


C) There may be more than one area left where not all units are taken. For Civil War and Tyranny, you may break the rule, and choose from these areas the remaining units to be selected to meet the exact required number.

What I said (as referring to the rulebook) is that the exceeding rule is a general rule, and Civil War and Tyranny have s specific exception there.
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Cheb
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Right I think I understand now. I had never understood the rule breakers before. I don't think it translated well as it reads weirdly!

So essentially for Civil War and Tyranny you ignore the general rule "On those occasions where a player can only comply if he exceeds the amount required, he must do so." as they have their own rule breakers. Using Tyranny as an example:

1) In each area all units belonging to the primary victim must be selected.

So the first rule you can break is this one, which means if you can't make exactly 15 in complete areas, you may partially annex an area (hence can lead to conflict situations)

2) The areas selected must be adjacent to each other.

If you still can't get up to 15, try non-adjacent areas.

3) The selected units must be exactly the number to comply.

If you STILL can't make 15, do less than 15.

4) The beneficiary must be able to annex all units in the combination selected.

I guess this means the beneficiary might not have any cities left for example and the only way to select 15 unit points is with cities - this allows you to break that rule and only select tokens instead.


Thank you Flo for being patient with us, I'm now much more confident on this rule!
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Peter Schott
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Thank you a lot. It is clear now.
("So klar wie Kloßbrühe", as the Germans say: "As clear as dumpling stock" )
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Flo de Haan
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greendayfan333 wrote:
Right I think I understand now. I had never understood the rule breakers before. I don't think it translated well as it reads weirdly!

So essentially for Civil War and Tyranny you ignore the general rule "On those occasions where a player can only comply if he exceeds the amount required, he must do so." as they have their own rule breakers. Using Tyranny as an example:

1) In each area all units belonging to the primary victim must be selected.

So the first rule you can break is this one, which means if you can't make exactly 15 in complete areas, you may partially annex an area (hence can lead to conflict situations)

2) The areas selected must be adjacent to each other.

If you still can't get up to 15, try non-adjacent areas.

3) The selected units must be exactly the number to comply.

If you STILL can't make 15, do less than 15.

4) The beneficiary must be able to annex all units in the combination selected.

I guess this means the beneficiary might not have any cities left for example and the only way to select 15 unit points is with cities - this allows you to break that rule and only select tokens instead.


Thank you Flo for being patient with us, I'm now much more confident on this rule!


no problem.
anyway, it may still occur that you will never see the situation. or 3 times in a row.
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