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The 7th Continent» Forums » News

Subject: November Update rss

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Mark Robinson
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1926712971/the-7th-cont...

November update has been posted.

I really like the addition of the thumbs up icon letting you know you have pulled/found the correct card. Color blind addition is subtle and nice.
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Mario
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KingSlamma wrote:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1926712971/the-7th-cont...

November update has been posted.

I really like the addition of the thumbs up icon letting you know you have pulled/found the correct card. Color blind addition is subtle and nice.


The thumbs up needs to be more subtle, specifically it needs to be moved to the bottom of the card so it is not seen while flipping through cards in the box.
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Jens Hedfors
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They will move it

Quote:
We initially chose to place the thumbs-up icon in the top right corner so that you could quickly see whether you had taken the right card.
However, the no-spoil argument makes sense and we will operate this small change by moving the icon to the bottom right corner.
Thanks for being part of such a reactive community
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Andreas Bøttger
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MerryHo wrote:
KingSlamma wrote:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1926712971/the-7th-cont...

November update has been posted.

I really like the addition of the thumbs up icon letting you know you have pulled/found the correct card. Color blind addition is subtle and nice.


The thumbs up needs to be more subtle, specifically it needs to be moved to the bottom of the card so it is not seen while flipping through cards in the box.


This. Have you contacted the designers? Small change with a potentially large impact.
 
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Gunther Schmidl
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Cheunce wrote:
They will move it

Quote:
We initially chose to place the thumbs-up icon in the top right corner so that you could quickly see whether you had taken the right card.
However, the no-spoil argument makes sense and we will operate this small change by moving the icon to the bottom right corner.
Thanks for being part of such a reactive community


That was amazingly fast.
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James Resner
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It's a nice update, I guess.

The real news should be the original fulfillment plan was 12 months from date of funding. The current timetable puts delivery in May 2017. That's a 58% time over run, which is actually about average.

I know the KS fanbois will attack the following statement but after 160 board games backed, I'm very comfortable making it.


nearly all KS board game projects will give reward fulfillment dates that are wildly over-optimistic. This can only be due to 2 things:

1. Total lack of a business plan and taking on the project unprepared, inexperienced and naively not taking any of those factors into account.

or

2. Knowing the true issues/timeline and intentionally misleading backers in order to drive up support, as most people would be turned off by fulfillment dates of 18+months.

Sadly I believe option 2 to be the norm. Or at least I hope it is, as I can live in a world with smart, devious people but a world with the clueless is a scarier place.
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Simon Croquet
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Rochambeaux wrote:
It's a nice update, I guess.

The real news should be the original fulfillment plan was 12 months from date of funding. The current timetable puts delivery in May 2017. That's a 58% time over run, which is actually about average.

I know the KS fanbois will attack the following statement but after 160 board games backed, I'm very comfortable making it.


nearly all KS board game projects will give reward fulfillment dates that are wildly over-optimistic. This can only be due to 2 things:

1. Total lack of a business plan and taking on the project unprepared, inexperienced and naively not taking any of those factors into account.

or

2. Knowing the true issues/timeline and intentionally misleading backers in order to drive up support, as most people would be turned off by fulfillment dates of 18+months.

Sadly I believe option 2 to be the norm. Or at least I hope it is, as I can live in a world with smart, devious people but a world with the clueless is a scarier place.


Words of wisdom. Only projects that are on time seem to be from established publishers or small projects.
 
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Rochambeaux wrote:
It's a nice update, I guess.

The real news should be the original fulfillment plan was 12 months from date of funding. The current timetable puts delivery in May 2017. That's a 58% time over run, which is actually about average.

I know the KS fanbois will attack the following statement but after 160 board games backed, I'm very comfortable making it.


nearly all KS board game projects will give reward fulfillment dates that are wildly over-optimistic. This can only be due to 2 things:

1. Total lack of a business plan and taking on the project unprepared, inexperienced and naively not taking any of those factors into account.

or

2. Knowing the true issues/timeline and intentionally misleading backers in order to drive up support, as most people would be turned off by fulfillment dates of 18+months.

Sadly I believe option 2 to be the norm. Or at least I hope it is, as I can live in a world with smart, devious people but a world with the clueless is a scarier place.

What about this one?
3) The time estimate does not include extras added to the campaign from over-funding stretch-goals.

Most of the time when I've seen projects go over on timelines it coincides with extra content being added from stretch goals taking extra time to complete. For this project those are definitely the lag point in the timeline charts that I have seen. In such a case, it makes sense that it is taking longer. In terms of sheer content, they are producing nearly double what they had started with!
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Michael Logan
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Shoum wrote:
Rochambeaux wrote:
It's a nice update, I guess.

The real news should be the original fulfillment plan was 12 months from date of funding. The current timetable puts delivery in May 2017. That's a 58% time over run, which is actually about average.

I know the KS fanbois will attack the following statement but after 160 board games backed, I'm very comfortable making it.


nearly all KS board game projects will give reward fulfillment dates that are wildly over-optimistic. This can only be due to 2 things:

1. Total lack of a business plan and taking on the project unprepared, inexperienced and naively not taking any of those factors into account.

or

2. Knowing the true issues/timeline and intentionally misleading backers in order to drive up support, as most people would be turned off by fulfillment dates of 18+months.

Sadly I believe option 2 to be the norm. Or at least I hope it is, as I can live in a world with smart, devious people but a world with the clueless is a scarier place.


Words of wisdom. Only projects that are on time seem to be from established publishers or small projects.


though for some of those, the game is completed and ready to print (or already printed) before going on KS
 
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Steve Cohn
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Rochambeaux wrote:
The real news should be the original fulfillment plan was 12 months from date of funding...


Real news would be "We're on schedule to make the timeline as estimated on the Kickstarter." Because, what, 25% of KS games are fulfilled on time? 20%?

6-12 months behind is not news, as you pointed out, it's all-too-common. Practically to the point it's expected. And, for many, accepted.

Unless the KS creator is either an established publisher with an excellent track record or states in the description of the KS campaign notes the game is "printed and waiting to be shipped" (see the KS for Key to the City – London as an example of the "or") -- I pretty much at this point take the original date and add a year to it. "Expected Delivery November 2016" actually means I'll be playing it over the (US) Thanksgiving weekend in 2017.

That said, I'll take a quality project that is finished to excellence vs. sub-par "hurried out the door to make a random date" any time!

Glad to hear progress is being made, but I don't think Essen 2017 release would actually surprise anyone?

I imagine the original estimate with the production/manufacturer went probably something like this:
"Oh, yes, we can do an 800 card print run for 2,000 copies by that date, no problem!" Because, yes, they probably could actually print 14 copies of a standard 54 card deck 2,000 times by date X.

And then after the KS finished the conversation was something like:
"Oh, you wanted 1,000 different cards printed as a set, and you want 13,000 copies of the set?"
*gets out slide rule and abacus*
*Um, that will take a little longer. How much longer? Um...a lot longer."

(I tease because I care, but seriously, no one should be surprised by this 'news').

I'm a backer, and I am expecting a great game and a great adventure on the 7th Continent. But I'm honestly expecting that adventure to be had while eating leftover turkey and stuffing in 2017.

~Steve
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Garry Rice
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They mentioned in the comments at some point that the delay is largely due to all the extra work they have to do for all the stretch goals.
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James Resner
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garry_rice wrote:
They mentioned in the comments at some point that the delay is largely due to all the extra work they have to do for all the stretch goals.


If that's the case then you should have a business plan detailing those extras and the level of effort, resources, etc. involved.

Otherwise you're just making empty promises about components that you have no idea about how much they will cost, take to produce, etc.

How hard would it be to do this:

have an initial, realistic delivery date for the "base" project. Then, each Stretch Goal, Add-On, etc. that gets funded would increase that delivery date by a specified amount.

This isn't particle physics folks.

But alas, as I predicted there will always be those that make excuses for anything KS. I just wish I could have that sort of management in my career
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David desJardins
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Rochambeaux wrote:
If that's the case then you should have a business plan detailing those extras and the level of effort, resources, etc. involved.


Who designated you to dictate what people should do? Their approach seems to be working fine.
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James Resner
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Rochambeaux wrote:
If that's the case then you should have a business plan detailing those extras and the level of effort, resources, etc. involved.


Who designated you to dictate what people should do? Their approach seems to be working fine.


"Dictate"? Wow, relax.

If by trying to provide a consumer point of view into a business practice, I guess that makes me a bad, evil "dictator".
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Martin Gallo
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Rochambeaux wrote:
garry_rice wrote:
They mentioned in the comments at some point that the delay is largely due to all the extra work they have to do for all the stretch goals.


If that's the case then you should have a business plan detailing those extras and the level of effort, resources, etc. involved.

Otherwise you're just making empty promises about components that you have no idea about how much they will cost, take to produce, etc.

How hard would it be to do this:

have an initial, realistic delivery date for the "base" project. Then, each Stretch Goal, Add-On, etc. that gets funded would increase that delivery date by a specified amount.

This isn't particle physics folks.

But alas, as I predicted there will always be those that make excuses for anything KS. I just wish I could have that sort of management in my career
Not to completely deflate your post but the estimated delivery date is set when the campaign is launched - Quite a bit of time before stretch goals are known. It is a fundamental flaw in the planning prospects. Sure, many of them are planned out (or guessed at) when the campaign is being planned (pre-launch) but nobody knows how many will be reached and KS does not allow changes during the campaign.

Now, it would be GREAT FUN for project managers to try and guesstimate the "delays" based on stretch goals reached somewhere in the project page. During the campaign. That would be helpful, but I have not seen it happen.
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James Resner
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martimer wrote:
Not to completely deflate your post but the estimated delivery date is set when the campaign is launched - Quite a bit of time before stretch goals are known. It is a fundamental flaw in the planning prospects. Sure, many of them are planned out (or guessed at) when the campaign is being planned (pre-launch) but nobody knows how many will be reached and KS does not allow changes during the campaign.

Now, it would be GREAT FUN for project managers to try and guesstimate the "delays" based on stretch goals reached somewhere in the project page. During the campaign. That would be helpful, but I have not seen it happen.


But how do they even have information for those add-ons, stretch goals, etc. unless they've put in a decent amount of research, design, etc/ At a minimum there would have t be a significant amount of knowledge about the level of effort to produce each one or are they just SWAGing the price out of thin air?

My point is that having that information, creating incremental increases to the delivery schedule would be a simple Excel spreadsheet task.

If nothing use the old adage "under promise adn over deliver".
 
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Becq Starforged
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Yup, I feel your pain. I currently have three severely overdue Kickstarters, and by "severely overdue" I'm measuring in years. This one doesn't compete; or at least not yet.

And if they had posted up front that each 15 additional cards added to the campaign would add a week to the estimated fulfillment date, I'm not convinced that that would have made the extra wait any easier...
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Martin Gallo
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Rochambeaux wrote:
martimer wrote:
Not to completely deflate your post but the estimated delivery date is set when the campaign is launched - Quite a bit of time before stretch goals are known. It is a fundamental flaw in the planning prospects. Sure, many of them are planned out (or guessed at) when the campaign is being planned (pre-launch) but nobody knows how many will be reached and KS does not allow changes during the campaign.

Now, it would be GREAT FUN for project managers to try and guesstimate the "delays" based on stretch goals reached somewhere in the project page. During the campaign. That would be helpful, but I have not seen it happen.


But how do they even have information for those add-ons, stretch goals, etc. unless they've put in a decent amount of research, design, etc/ At a minimum there would have t be a significant amount of knowledge about the level of effort to produce each one or are they just SWAGing the price out of thin air?

My point is that having that information, creating incremental increases to the delivery schedule would be a simple Excel spreadsheet task.

If nothing use the old adage "under promise adn over deliver".
Because, as I said, KS only allows one fixed delivery date entry.

I can only assume that there is some sort of policy against posting such a graduated, spreadsheet-based, delivery schedule that accounted for stretch goals.
 
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Montgomery Box
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martimer wrote:
Rochambeaux wrote:
martimer wrote:
Not to completely deflate your post but the estimated delivery date is set when the campaign is launched - Quite a bit of time before stretch goals are known. It is a fundamental flaw in the planning prospects. Sure, many of them are planned out (or guessed at) when the campaign is being planned (pre-launch) but nobody knows how many will be reached and KS does not allow changes during the campaign.

Now, it would be GREAT FUN for project managers to try and guesstimate the "delays" based on stretch goals reached somewhere in the project page. During the campaign. That would be helpful, but I have not seen it happen.


But how do they even have information for those add-ons, stretch goals, etc. unless they've put in a decent amount of research, design, etc/ At a minimum there would have t be a significant amount of knowledge about the level of effort to produce each one or are they just SWAGing the price out of thin air?

My point is that having that information, creating incremental increases to the delivery schedule would be a simple Excel spreadsheet task.

If nothing use the old adage "under promise adn over deliver".
Because, as I said, KS only allows one fixed delivery date entry.

I can only assume that there is some sort of policy against posting such a graduated, spreadsheet-based, delivery schedule that accounted for stretch goals.


From what I've seen, there isn't anything preventing a graduated delivery date on the campaign page. But I've seen in a couple of campaigns that KS does not allow them to alter the pledge levels at all (including expected delivery dates).
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Leander Van Reeth
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martimer wrote:
Not to completely deflate your post but the estimated delivery date is set when the campaign is launched - Quite a bit of time before stretch goals are known. It is a fundamental flaw in the planning prospects. Sure, many of them are planned out (or guessed at) when the campaign is being planned (pre-launch) but nobody knows how many will be reached and KS does not allow changes during the campaign.


The solution is easy: make your most optimistic guess as to how much money you'll be able to raise (i.e.: all stretch goals reached. Yay!) Then, be as pessimistic as you can about the delivery date of the product with all stretch goals reached. That should be the estimated delivery date for your Kickstarter. If you were right about everything, you will deliver on time. If you were wrong, you will deliver early. Do not add stretch goals that you hadn't planned for unless you're 100% certain that they won't delay your product. It's not that hard.
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James Resner
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reneald wrote:

The solution is easy: make your most optimistic guess as to how much money you'll be able to raise (i.e.: all stretch goals reached. Yay!) Then, be as pessimistic as you can about the delivery date of the product with all stretch goals reached. That should be the estimated delivery date for your Kickstarter. If you were right about everything, you will deliver on time. If you were wrong, you will deliver early. Do not add stretch goals that you hadn't planned for unless you're 100% certain that they won't delay your product. It's not that hard.


There's a very simple, old adage for your words of wisdom.

"Under Promise and Over Deliver"
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Sander Engels
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reneald wrote:
martimer wrote:
Not to completely deflate your post but the estimated delivery date is set when the campaign is launched - Quite a bit of time before stretch goals are known. It is a fundamental flaw in the planning prospects. Sure, many of them are planned out (or guessed at) when the campaign is being planned (pre-launch) but nobody knows how many will be reached and KS does not allow changes during the campaign.


The solution is easy: make your most optimistic guess as to how much money you'll be able to raise (i.e.: all stretch goals reached. Yay!) Then, be as pessimistic as you can about the delivery date of the product with all stretch goals reached. That should be the estimated delivery date for your Kickstarter. If you were right about everything, you will deliver on time. If you were wrong, you will deliver early. Do not add stretch goals that you hadn't planned for unless you're 100% certain that they won't delay your product. It's not that hard.

Hello hippo!
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Tim Stratton
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Seen wrote:

Hello hippo!


Hippos!
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