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Vinhos Deluxe Edition» Forums » General

Subject: Purpose of Wineries rss

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Chris Hecox
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Unless, I'm just restating the strategy of the game with this post, or missing a rule, wineries seem purposeless, unless you are playing for enologists.

From my understanding, these are the advantages to a winery:

-Guaranteed 3 bagos to purchase (instead of the fluctuating cost of a vineyard)
-An extra renown cube
-The ability to purchase and place an enologist at 3 bagos. (2 extra value points)
-Increased wine value by 1

The advantage to a vineyard seems to outweigh, however:

-Increased wine value by 2
-Purchase a farmer at 2 bagos (1 extra value point)
-Variable cost on a vineyard (not great in comparison to the fixed 3 bagos for a winery)
-An extra renown cube
-Additional region bonus for purchasing/placing a vineyard
-Becomes doubly effective by purchasing another vineyard, yielding another cube, more value, another farmer, and perhaps another region bonus.

Why would you ever settle for a winery? Wouldn't you just always stack vineyards? They seem more cost effective and will give higher value and quality.

I suppose it comes down to having yet another option, when you are poor and other players are taking the action, and you can't afford to pay them on that space?

Thoughts on this?
 
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Lawrence
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You can only ever have 2 wineries in a region (exception is one of the Island expansion vineyards) since you can only stack vineyards from the same region, growing the same grape.

If you don't use wineries, that 3rd spot is generally wasted. It also lets you use enologists, which give +2.
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Michael K.
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Is it because you are only allowed to buy two vineyards (of the same colour) per estate (and therefore can only fill up your slots by buying wineries)?

Ninja'd by mavericklancer! ninja
 
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Chris Hecox
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mavericklancer wrote:
You can only ever have 2 wineries in a region since you can only stack vineyards from the same region, growing the same grape.

If you don't use wineries, that 3rd spot is generally wasted. It also lets you use enologists, which give +2.


Gotcha, so barring financial difficulty, you could generally aim to start with two vineyards in an estate, then placing the winery lastly?

I know it's all tactical and depends on what other players are doing, but it still seems from a cost perspective you are better off with farmers and vineyards than wineries and enologists at the start of the estate.
 
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Chris Hecox
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Loodlood wrote:
Is it because you are only allowed to buy two vineyards (of the same colour) per estate (and therefore can only fillup your slots by buying wineries)?

Ninja'd by Lawrence! ninja


I think so, which makes me think wineries are the last thing you want to place... But maybe not because it will be easier to plant a vineyard, then winery, then another vineyard, based on where the action spaces are located on the board.
 
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Trevor Schadt
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Also keep in mind that you have to buy the vineyards in the order they are stacked on the region space, and that order is randomized.

So if you have an estate in Lisboa making red wine, and the next vineyard on the Lisboa stack is white wine, you can't add it to the same estate. So you either have to buy it and start a second estate, or wait for someone else to buy it (in which case there's a 50% chance that the third tile will be white and you'll still be stuck!). Plus, since you can only buy one vineyard from a region on a given Vineyards action, even if the second tile is red, there's a chance that someone else will buy it before you get the chance.

Wineries are a guaranteed bonus at any time, rather than playing the odds that the vineyard you want will be available when you're in a position to buy it.
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Lawrence
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koreanpenguin wrote:

Gotcha, so barring financial difficulty, you could generally aim to start with two vineyards in an estate, then placing the winery lastly?

I know it's all tactical and depends on what other players are doing, but it still seems from a cost perspective you are better off with farmers and vineyards than wineries and enologistsj.


It's not just financial difficulty - it's also availability of vineyards. Say you grab Madeira (red). The next vineyard is Madeira (white), but you don't want to or can't start a new estate. You're stuck with a single Madeira (red) until someone else takes that Madeira (white). This is where wineries really become more viable.

Edit: ninja'd by Trevor

In 4p availability becomes somewhat of a bigger issue, as you might find it difficult to get more than 1 or 2 double stacks. I like taking vineyards of other players to try to snake their renown cubes.
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Chris Hecox
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mavericklancer wrote:
koreanpenguin wrote:

Gotcha, so barring financial difficulty, you could generally aim to start with two vineyards in an estate, then placing the winery lastly?

I know it's all tactical and depends on what other players are doing, but it still seems from a cost perspective you are better off with farmers and vineyards than wineries and enologistsj.


It's not just financial difficulty - it's also availability of vineyards. Say you grab Madeira (red). The next vineyard is Madeira (white), but you don't want to or can't start a new estate. You're stuck with a single Madeira (red) until someone else takes that Madeira (white). This is where wineries really become more viable.

Edit: ninja'd by Trevor

In 4p availability becomes somewhat of a bigger issue, as you might find it difficult to get more than 1 or 2 double stacks. I like taking vineyards of other players to try to snake their renown cubes.


All of that makes sense.

I played two player with my wife, and somehow, every stack of vineyards had two reds on top, so I didn't see white grapes until close to the 3rd fair. I think maybe this helped to feed my bias towards vineyards.

I'm curious to see how much the game changes as you add players.
 
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Trevor Schadt
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koreanpenguin wrote:
I played two player with my wife, and somehow, every stack of vineyards had two reds on top, so I didn't see white grapes until close to the 3rd fair. I think maybe this helped to feed my bias towards vineyards.
Wow. The odds of shuffling 7 stacks and having all 7 of them come up R-R-W-W is... (does math) 1/279,936. That's pretty amazing.
 
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James J

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koreanpenguin wrote:

The advantage to a vineyard seems to outweigh, however:

-Increased wine value by 2
(snip)
-Additional region bonus for purchasing/placing a vineyard
-


Also, I don't believe these two advantages work together. If you are using the vineyard to increase the wine value by 2, that indicates you are adding to an estate as a second vineyard of the same type. And you get no region bonus for adding a second region to an estate.

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Euan D
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koreanpenguin wrote:


The advantage to a vineyard seems to outweigh, however:


-An extra renown cube

Thoughts on this?


Unless im mistaken you get a renown cube for placing wineries as well.
 
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Michael Cabral
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In all versions of the game, you can use a wine expert to rearrange the vineyards of one region to the grape you want before purchasing it.

You can use a Magnate action to lower the cost of a vineyard, winery, farmer or enologist.

In the 2010 version, wineries were useful to increase the quality by 1 since there were no farmers. Wineries were still expensive at 3 Bagos still, Enologists were only 1 Bago each. There were Manager's bonus to buy a winery for 1 Bago. In that respect it was useful to get 2 vineyards and 1 winery with an enologist +/- weather.

Vineyards do not give you the region bonus if it is placed on the same estate. You only get a 2 quality increase, one region renown cube and spend more money usually since Minho is the only region at 3 pending magnate action tile. You are unfortunately squandering the region bonus.
 
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Michael Cabral
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Another benefit for buying a vineyard is that you can bank/defer a region renown cube on the winery if there is no vineyard on the estate yet. Once you buy and place a vineyard you then place that region renown cube in that region. This enables you to be strategic in buying an untouched region later in the game.
 
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Jonathan Hersey
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There are a lot of ways to score points in this game and the wineries are quite helpful for a number of reasons. Here are a few:

-Time/number of available actions, is also a resource of sorts. In an estate, it only takes 3 actions to get to a base production value of 8 if you use two wineries (action 1 = vineyard, action 2 = buy two wineries, action 3, buy two encologists) whereas it takes at least 4 actions to create the same production value using two estates (action 1 = estate, action 2 = estate, action 3 = winery, action 4 = encologist and farmer). The reason for this is that you can’t buy two vineyards from the same region during the same action.

-as others have mentioned, the vineyard tile order can limit what’s available

-Particularly in the 2010 version, you can base your strategies on the wine magnate multiplier spaces. If you are going for either the Winery multiplier or the full estate multiplier, wineries are a smart purchase

-In conjunction with my first point, producing higher quality wines earlier on allows you to go after the higher point export spaces and the higher value sales areas quicker which can then gain you momentum in other areas of the game earlier on.

-When adding a 2nd vineyard to an estate, you do not get the region bonus a 2nd time. it can cost you $8 to add +3 in production value (vineyard + encologist) whereas it would only cost you $6 with a winery and encologist (possibly less or more if you are playing the 2010 version)

-even if the stars align for one of your estates and you are able to quickly/easily get two vineyards of the same color in the same estate, you won’t be able to do this with all of your estates and will still have to revert to wineries most of the time.

Both the Winery and the Vineyard have a lot of merit, just depends on the circumstances and what you are going for
 
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Michael Off The Shelf Board Game Reviews
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koreanpenguin wrote:
mavericklancer wrote:
You can only ever have 2 wineries in a region since you can only stack vineyards from the same region, growing the same grape.

If you don't use wineries, that 3rd spot is generally wasted. It also lets you use enologists, which give +2.


Gotcha, so barring financial difficulty, you could generally aim to start with two vineyards in an estate, then placing the winery lastly?

I know it's all tactical and depends on what other players are doing, but it still seems from a cost perspective you are better off with farmers and vineyards than wineries and enologists at the start of the estate.


Well if someone else purchased the matching Vineyard (Remember each estate can only have 2 vineyards of the same type from the same region) then you would purchase a Winery instead. It is also usually more cost efficient to purchase a second Winery since a 2nd Vineyard in the same estate doesn't give its bonus and the majority of Vineyards cost more than estates. Of course Enologists cost more than farmers... so it is a balancing game.
 
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Vita Est Certamine
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Also, am I correct in understanding that if you buy two wineries in one action they must be from different regions? For instance, you buy the top winery from region 1 and it's red. The second one is also red, however you cannot buy it on as your second winery on that same action as it's from the same region. Thus leaving it vulnerable for an opponent to snatch it up (for whatever reason as they'd be in the same boat).

 
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Trevor Schadt
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Maddest Hatter wrote:
Also, am I correct in understanding that if you buy two wineries in one action they must be from different regions?
Yes, that is correct.
 
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Michael K.
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Maddest Hatter wrote:
Also, am I correct in understanding that if you buy two wineries vineyards in one action they must be from different regions? For instance, you buy the top winery vineyard from region 1 and it's red. The second one is also red, however you cannot buy it on as your second winery vineyard on that same action as it's from the same region. Thus leaving it vulnerable for an opponent to snatch it up (for whatever reason as they'd be in the same boat).



FTFY
 
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Michael Cabral
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ryudoowaru wrote:
Maddest Hatter wrote:
Also, am I correct in understanding that if you buy two wineries in one action they must be from different regions?
Yes, that is correct.


That is not correct. Wineries can both be placed in the same estate if there are two spots available next to a vineyard.

ryudoowaru fixed the original question to use vineyards and not wineries.
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Vita Est Certamine
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Cabralicus wrote:
ryudoowaru wrote:
Maddest Hatter wrote:
Also, am I correct in understanding that if you buy two wineries in one action they must be from different regions?
Yes, that is correct.


That is not correct. Wineries can both be placed in the same estate if there are two spots available next to a vineyard.

ryudoowaru fixed the original question to use vineyards and not wineries.


Holy crap I butchered that question. lol! But yeah, ryudoowaru got my intent.
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Trevor Schadt
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Cabralicus wrote:
ryudoowaru wrote:
Maddest Hatter wrote:
Also, am I correct in understanding that if you buy two wineries in one action they must be from different regions?
Yes, that is correct.


That is not correct. Wineries can both be placed in the same estate if there are two spots available next to a vineyard.

ryudoowaru fixed the original question to use vineyards and not wineries.
I misread the original question, but wineries don't come from regions; vineyards do. Nevertheless, thank you Michael for pointing out the error.
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