$18.00
GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters: 104.1

6,530 Supporters

$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
41.1% of Goal | left

Support:

Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
70 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

Trick of the Rails» Forums » General

Subject: Rip off alert rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Mark Gilbertson
United States
Duluth
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmb
... Trick of the Rails indeed, the trick is the old 'bait and switch' routine! I ordered 5 copies of this game to be given as gifts, in large part due to the fact that the cards were said to have a better quality linen finish. The decks I received today do not have a linen finish. Mistake or misrepresentation, this is the project that broke the Kickstarter back for me. No more empty promises and unfulfilled expectations, I've had all the disappointments I can take. So long Kickstarter, I won't get "tricked" again,,,,
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nathan Morse
United States
Powell
Ohio
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Hmm, yeah, it certainly is not what I've come to know as a "linen finish", but then, the zoomed-in view on the Kickstarter page seems to match the actual card, rather than what I think linen finish is.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nathan Morse
United States
Powell
Ohio
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
I also had a particularly badly trimmed card — a good 8cm of 1mm-wide strip hanging off the side, but thankfully it was a summary card!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Gilbertson
United States
Duluth
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmb
zefquaavius wrote:
Hmm, yeah, it certainly is not what I've come to know as a "linen finish", but then, the zoomed-in view on the Kickstarter page seems to match the actual card, rather than what I think linen finish is.

"2) Linen Cards:

We are already doing 350gsm cards which is above the industry standard. We wanted to go with 350gsm so the cards will be durable to sustain the hundreds of times you'll play it . Now with a linen finish, they'll be even more durable and long-lasting."


https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/justinschaffer/trick-of...

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Justin Schaffer
United States
Arvada
Colorado
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Discover Fun Together
mbmbmbmbmb
Grim Norsefury wrote:
... "Trick" of the Rails indeed, the trick is the old 'bait and switch'! I ordered 5 copies of this game to be given as gifts, in large part due to the fact that the cards were said to have a better quality linen finish. The decks I received today do not have a linen finish. Mistake or misrepresentation, this is the project that broke the Kickstarter back for me. No more empty promises and unfulfilled expectations, I've had all the disappointments I can take, so long Kickstarter,,,,,


Hi Mark - I replied to your comment on our Kickstarter page, but will reply here as well. I'm sorry you feel that this is a ripoff. We think that our version with clearer graphic design, great looking art, a scorepad, pencil, and reference cards for $13 (a savings of $12 off MSRP) is a pretty great deal. Especially since the original version, which was only a deck of cards, is not readily available in the US (there's one copy for $45 in the BGG Marketplace). So we are sorry that this didn't live up to your expectations, but we firmly believe in the high quality game that we were able to deliver in a timely fashion, just like we have with all or our games.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The quality of the finish on the cards is pretty subjective. If you are going to be angry if such details don't match your expectations, then you should definitely wait for retail release rather than backing projects on Kickstarter.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David E
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
Boardgame Aesthete
mbmbmbmbmb
Justin,

So to clarify: the cards are not linen coated, as promised in the Kickstarter?

I just read your explanation in the KS comments. Okay, I see that this was a miscommunication between you and the printer, and late in the production stage. So I understand that redoing the entire print run was probably unfeasible.

But this looks like another case, of several we've seen recently, where Kickstarter creators who discover that something has gone amiss would be much better off being up front with their backers (and offering refunds as necessary) than just carrying on as if nothing happened hoping no one notices.

Speaking for myself, if you had posted an update saying "Whoops, sorry guys - we meant to print these cards with a linen finish, but here's what happened..." I'd have shrugged and said "Okay, no big deal."

But now I am annoyed and less likely to back anything by you in the future,
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Justin Schaffer
United States
Arvada
Colorado
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Discover Fun Together
mbmbmbmbmb
AmadanNaBriona wrote:
Justin,

So to clarify: the cards are not linen coated, as promised in the Kickstarter?

I just read your explanation in the KS comments. Okay, I see that this was a miscommunication between you and the printer, and late in the production stage. So I understand that redoing the entire print run was probably unfeasible.

But this looks like another case, of several we've seen recently, where Kickstarter creators who discover that something has gone amiss would be much better off being up front with their backers (and offering refunds as necessary) than just carrying on as if nothing happened hoping no one notices.

Speaking for myself, if you had posted an update saying "Whoops, sorry guys - we meant to print these cards with a linen finish, but here's what happened..." I'd have shrugged and said "Okay, no big deal."

But now I am annoyed and less likely to back anything by you in the future,


Hi David, cross-posting our reply from Kickstarter here for reference:

--

We realized very late in the final stages that the cards didn't have the linen coating. Unfortunately it was too late to make any changes though since our entire order had already been printed.

The reason for the oversight was a misunderstanding between us and the printer. We knew that we'd be interested in trying to have linen coated cards, and thus included that in all our requests for quotes. When we received the quote for all the different upgrades we were interested in, the cards in every instance were listed as "coated". We took this as linen coating, but what we came to learn after the fact was that they meant aqueous coating.

I've attached a screenshot so you can see what I mean. Hopefully you understand how this could have been mistaken. Because the game is one that doesn't require much shuffling, and because we've used a high quality cardstock, we feel very confident the game will withstand all your plays of it. We appreciate your understanding, are thankful for your support, and hope you enjoy playing Trick of the Rails as much as we do.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sxep75aiwt5umba/Screen%20Shot%2020...

--

We apologize that you are annoyed and understand if you do not wish to back any of our future projects, but we stand behind the quality of games we've produced and the timeliness in which we've been able to deliver them. Thank you for your support.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Gilbertson
United States
Duluth
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmb
Justinschaffer wrote:
Grim Norsefury wrote:
... "Trick" of the Rails indeed, the trick is the old 'bait and switch'! I ordered 5 copies of this game to be given as gifts, in large part due to the fact that the cards were said to have a better quality linen finish. The decks I received today do not have a linen finish. Mistake or misrepresentation, this is the project that broke the Kickstarter back for me. No more empty promises and unfulfilled expectations, I've had all the disappointments I can take, so long Kickstarter,,,,,


Hi Mark - I replied to your comment on our Kickstarter page, but will reply here as well. I'm sorry you feel that this is a ripoff. We think that our version with clearer graphic design, great looking art, a scorepad, pencil, and reference cards for $13 (a savings of $12 off MSRP) is a pretty great deal. Especially since the original version, which was only a deck of cards, is not readily available in the US (there's one copy for $45 in the BGG Marketplace). So we are sorry that this didn't live up to your expectations, but we firmly believe in the high quality game that we were able to deliver in a timely fashion, just like we have with all or our games.


Dear Justin,

Thank you so much for taking the time to address my concern with this project!

However, you described exactly what you were planning to sell me as a "stretch goal" for this project (goal #2) and explained plainly in a Kickstarter e-mail update sent to me and on the Kickstarter site itself what that goal was to be (it included "linen finish cards"). You then neglected to let us backers know of your decision to ultimately eliminate the "linen finished cards" stretch goal, effectively preventing the opportunity for us to back out of the project based on consideration of that change (as I would have, since the "linen finished cards" were the key tipping point in my deciding to Kickstart this game). Disappointment always follows deception for me, and as I stated here and on the Kickstarter comments page, detatchment has followed deception this time as well. I've had the last "trick" I'm going to take from Kickstarter projects that seem to give me more excuses for their failures than contented gameplay from their successes.

Take good care Justin!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Justin Schaffer
United States
Arvada
Colorado
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Discover Fun Together
mbmbmbmbmb
zefquaavius wrote:
I also had a particularly badly trimmed card — a good 8cm of 1mm-wide strip hanging off the side, but thankfully it was a summary card!


We'd be happy to replace that card for you if desired. Just send me a DM if so. Thanks!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
AmadanNaBriona wrote:
But this looks like another case, of several we've seen recently, where Kickstarter creators who discover that something has gone amiss would be much better off being up front with their backers (and offering refunds as necessary) than just carrying on as if nothing happened hoping no one notices.


Communication is good, but refunds are not necessary. People who back Kickstarter projects accept the risk that what they get may not exactly match the original plan. That's the whole idea. That's why they say, "Kickstarter is not a store." If you want to be sure of exactly what you're getting, wait for it to be produced.
16 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Colin
United States
Covington
Washington
flag msg tools
Hustle Like Russell - 12th Man for Life!
badge
My height doesn't define my skill set. To be a great gamer, you have to have great leadership, great attention to detail and a relentless competitive nature - and I try to bring that on a daily basis.
mbmbmbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
AmadanNaBriona wrote:
But this looks like another case, of several we've seen recently, where Kickstarter creators who discover that something has gone amiss would be much better off being up front with their backers (and offering refunds as necessary) than just carrying on as if nothing happened hoping no one notices.


Communication is good, but refunds are not necessary. People who back Kickstarter projects accept the risk that what they get may not exactly match the original plan. That's the whole idea. That's why they say, "Kickstarter is not a store." If you want to be sure of exactly what you're getting, wait for it to be produced.


Couldn't have said it better!

I was far more disappointed in my Dominion: Adventures purchase when it came to card quality. Although the cards aren't linen finish, the quality is top-notch. I expect this game to last a lifetime, even without sleeving.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David E
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
Boardgame Aesthete
mbmbmbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
Communication is good, but refunds are not necessary. People who back Kickstarter projects accept the risk that what they get may not exactly match the original plan. That's the whole idea. That's why they say, "Kickstarter is not a store." If you want to be sure of exactly what you're getting, wait for it to be produced.



I have backed literally hundreds of projects on Kickstarter.

I didn't say refunds are necessary. (I personally would not ask for one.) I said the creators would have been better off offering them to those who insisted. As I have seen other Kickstarter creators do when something doesn't turn out right, even though they have no obligation to do so. Just as many other businesses will offer refunds or replacements when they have no obligation to do so, for the sake of preserving customer good will.

In this case, as I said, being up front about an unexpected change would have been even better - I doubt many people would really demand their money back or even be particularly upset because a snafu resulted in the cards not being linen. But now people are annoyed because the lack of communication gives the appearance of the creators simply opting for a lower-quality production than was promised, even if that was not the intent.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
AmadanNaBriona wrote:
I didn't say refunds are necessary. (I personally would not ask for one.) I said the creators would have been better off offering them to those who insisted.


No, that's not what you wrote. Just scroll up to see.

But this looks like another case, of several we've seen recently, where Kickstarter creators who discover that something has gone amiss would be much better off being up front with their backers (and offering refunds as necessary) than just carrying on as if nothing happened hoping no one notices.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nathan Morse
United States
Powell
Ohio
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Justinschaffer wrote:
zefquaavius wrote:
I also had a particularly badly trimmed card — a good 8cm of 1mm-wide strip hanging off the side, but thankfully it was a summary card!


We'd be happy to replace that card for you if desired. Just send me a DM if so. Thanks!
Most considerate, Justin, but it was just a summary card, which should have no impact on play. Thank you for your kind offer!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David E
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
Boardgame Aesthete
mbmbmbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
AmadanNaBriona wrote:
I didn't say refunds are necessary. (I personally would not ask for one.) I said the creators would have been better off offering them to those who insisted.


No, that's not what you wrote. Just scroll up to see.



I know what I wrote.

The "as necessary" clause refers to placating angry backers. Not an imagined legal obligation. If you are assuming I meant the latter, I will attribute that as 20% failure of explicitness on my part, 80% tortuous inference on yours.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
My statement that it is not necessary to offer refunds for issues like this is also in reference to placating backers, not an imagined legal obligation.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David E
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
Boardgame Aesthete
mbmbmbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
My statement that it is not necessary to offer refunds for issues like this is also in reference to placating backers, not an imagined legal obligation.



Ah, I see. We're in a pedantry competition.

You win.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Gilbertson
United States
Duluth
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
AmadanNaBriona wrote:
But this looks like another case, of several we've seen recently, where Kickstarter creators who discover that something has gone amiss would be much better off being up front with their backers (and offering refunds as necessary) than just carrying on as if nothing happened hoping no one notices.


Communication is good, but refunds are not necessary. People who back Kickstarter projects accept the risk that what they get may not exactly match the original plan. That's the whole idea. That's why they say, "Kickstarter is not a store." If you want to be sure of exactly what you're getting, wait for it to be produced.

Dear Friend,

Here's a sincere question regarding the logic of your solution to the 'near hit-and-often miss' that is Kickstarter:

Where would Kickstarter even BE if we ALL waited until everything offered on Kickstarter "was produced"? There would be no need for Kickstarter! We who take the chance to get these projects off the ground by backing them on Kickstarter make buying them later from various sources POSSIBLE. So indeed, what kind of consolation is ... if you're tired of being ripped off by Kickstarter, just wait and buy it in a store?

Having no deep concern for doing absolutely everything right by your investors eventually leads to no investors. A long time ago, the simple communication of "we failed" given to us backers upon the inevitable shortcomings of just about every Kickstarter project I've ever backed was enough to put my mind at ease. I'd console myself after yet another Kickstarter failure by thinking "oh well, I should be happy just to have the game, I'll have better luck next time". Now, that outlook just seems to allow and encourage continued failure. This project was a deck of cards; no bulging bags of bits and pieces, no lengthy text on player's aids, no mountains of cardboard chits to punch out without tearing, no convoluted art on game boards, JUST 71 CARDS! If you can't get that right, what hope should I ever have of getting the big game's projects on Kickstarter done right,,,,, none!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Gilbertson
United States
Duluth
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
The quality of the finish on the cards is pretty subjective. If you are going to be angry if such details don't match your expectations, then you should definitely wait for retail release rather than backing projects on Kickstarter.

Dear Friend,

Please point out the part of "linen finish cards" that's subjective, they either are or they aren't. I'd really like to understand what you mean by "subjective",,,,,


2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Gilbertson
United States
Duluth
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmb
AmadanNaBriona wrote:
Justin,

So to clarify: the cards are not linen coated, as promised in the Kickstarter?

I just read your explanation in the KS comments. Okay, I see that this was a miscommunication between you and the printer, and late in the production stage. So I understand that redoing the entire print run was probably unfeasible.

But this looks like another case, of several we've seen recently, where Kickstarter creators who discover that something has gone amiss would be much better off being up front with their backers (and offering refunds as necessary) than just carrying on as if nothing happened hoping no one notices.

Speaking for myself, if you had posted an update saying "Whoops, sorry guys - we meant to print these cards with a linen finish, but here's what happened..." I'd have shrugged and said "Okay, no big deal."

But now I am annoyed and less likely to back anything by you in the future,


... no shrug from me, I'd have cancelled, but I'm abundantly aware that many things in life happen beyond our control.

Communication is necessary for good decision making. I can only make good decisions if I have good information available to do so. Deception erodes trust, and admitting the truth (even if it hurts) builds trust. Kickstarter at its core is really an exercise in mutual trust; I'll buy what you're selling if I can believe you, and trust that what you're proposing to deliver really is what I'm going to get. Right now I have no reason to trust or believe the creators of this project,,,,,
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Grim Norsefury wrote:
Kickstarter at its core is really an exercise in mutual trust; I'll buy what you're selling if I can believe you, and trust that what you're proposing to deliver really is what I'm going to get.


It's really not that. Most people on Kickstarter only expect creators to make a good-faith effort. That's also expressly stated as the philosophy of the site. They make very clear that what you get might not be exactly what is originally proposed. Asking for refunds and the like just feeds into wrong expectations about what backers should expect.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Bernstein
United States
Orange
California
flag msg tools
Justin, I thought I remembered one of the updates where you were sent initial copies to review before final printing? Did you just not notice?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Gilbertson
United States
Duluth
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
Grim Norsefury wrote:
Kickstarter at its core is really an exercise in mutual trust; I'll buy what you're selling if I can believe you, and trust that what you're proposing to deliver really is what I'm going to get.


It's really not that. Most people on Kickstarter only expect creators to make a good-faith effort. That's also expressly stated as the philosophy of the site. They make very clear that what you get might not be exactly what is originally proposed. Asking for refunds and the like just feeds into wrong expectations about what backers should expect.

Dear Friend,

I'm not asking a single thing of anyone (unless maybe they'd like to buy a few copies of "Trick of the Rails" from me!).

I would like to ask you one simple question however. How many times do you think it would be prudent to put an apple on one's head and allow a stranger with a bow and arrow the opportunity to take a "good-faith effort" shot at knocking that apple off? In order for me to ever resume my relationship with any future Kickstarter projects, I'll either need to find a bigger apple or grow a smaller head,,,,,
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Gilbertson
United States
Duluth
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmb
mudville9 wrote:
Justin, I thought I remembered one of the updates where you were sent initial copies to review before final printing? Did you just not notice?


"Update #9: Checkpoint #2: Production Proofs" - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/justinschaffer/trick-of...

"As you can see, everything looks beautiful and the good news is that everything is also accurate! That means we can give the manufacturer the go ahead to ship everything over to us. Assuming that everything goes smoothly with customs, we'll have your games to you by our estimated delivery date of October."

Dear Friends, right here is the 'where and when' that you inform us of the missing 'what', i.e. "Unfortunately, 'accuracy' does not include the promised stretch goal of "linen finished" cards,,,,,".
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.