$18.00
GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters: 131.59

7,727 Supporters

$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
48.7% of Goal | left

Support:

Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
21 Posts

Star Wars: Rebellion» Forums » General

Subject: Tweaks and critiques of the death star rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Billy Babel
United States
Guymon
Oklahoma
flag msg tools
What I think everyone agrees the death star is supposed to do:

1.Be a club early game to beat away the rebels with minimal forces.
2.be a counter to rebel players that build up very heavily in the rebel base.
3.Be a liability at some point that the empire player has to protect.


but it really kinda fails at number 2 because the empire player on the march over there really doesn't have a good way to stop the rebel player from destroying it if he has the death star plans card. you can roll at max 5 die so the rebel player has a pretty good chance of surviving if he has 5 or more xwings which certainly isn't too hard. And by the time you find the rebel base in order to move the death star at it, it's usually pretty late in the game.

Also the death star should be a liability, but it is such a colossal massive liability that from my personal games, and the ones I've seen here a second death star almost is never built except in the most extreme fringe of circumstances. And thematically that doesn't make sense, the empire wanted the deathstar to be the core of their forces which is why they went to the trouble of making a second one, contrast to this game where after turn 4 or 5 everyone wants to put their death star as far away as possible. I mean can you imagine germany keeping all their tiger tanks back in german HQ for fear they'd be blown up?

Also thematically what is happening is that an xwing pilot is making the trench run and hitting the exhaust port and causing the chain reaction that blows up the death star, this is very thematic and pretty awesome for the first death star. But it makes absolutely no sense for it to happen again with the second death star. The empire on the second death star very specifically built extra armor and defenses around the exhaust ports so that the rebels wouldn't be able to blow up the next ones which is why the rebels wanted to blow it up while it was being built. The idea that they could make another trench run, which is what the second death star plans seems to imply is ludicrous, the empire may be dumb and cocky but not enough so that they'd just let it happen again.

I believe that if the empire takes enough precautions they should be able to reliably protect the death star and be able to use it, but those precautions just need to be so absolutely laborious and costly that it must be a trade off.

So I propose a few things to give the death stars the thematic and gameplay boost I personally feel they need.

1. A card from the projects deck that requires 2 logistics (so it'll require two people to be assigned to it) called "armored exhaust ports"

it reads like this "play this card on the table, at the end of each round place one damage token on this card to a maximum of 4. While there are damage tokens on this card death star plans cannot be used. The death star becomes targetable and for every red damage done to the death star remove one damage token from this card" This thematically represents that the empire either learned from what the rebels had done, or realized what they were about to do and reacted accordingly, but with logistics break downs and building delays reinforcing and repairing the critically important exhaust ports is a slow process and creates an ebb and flow to the death star.

Or alternatively instead of that, if the first death star is blown up, then the second one built must take 3 or 4 red damage before death star plans can be used as if it was finished being built it would have heavily armored exhaust ports, and it makes sense it would need some heavy firepower to damage the exhaust ports before anyone could make a run.

2. Death star shield generator.

I think that another card in the project deck should be a death star shield generator that is built on a planet like the rebel shield generator is. This would stop the rebel player from playing death star plans while the death star was in the same system as the generator allowing them to protect it with ground forces instead of needing so many air forces, but to compensate the rebels would get a level 3 objective card that reads like "if after a ground combat you still have at least one rebel trooper, roll a number of dice equal to the combat leader's ground tactics value, if you score 2 successes then destroy an imperial building, or do damage equal to the number of successes with lightsabers counting as 2 succsses. Score 1 point"
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Garrett
msg tools
Thanks for your post! A handful of your concerns have been brought up before- which, of course, doesn't make them any less valid! Here's what I have to say, though:

1. I opened a poll after the game came out that tracked the results of people's early games. What it found was, in 138 separate games, two death stars were destroyed twice. If we accept this as an average, that means that it's a development you won't see in 98.5% of games. Because it's so rare, I'm not convinced that the Empire needs a special card to make it even less likely! As it stands, the Empire needs to build the 2nd Death Star, the Rebels need to successfully draw both plans, the Empire needs to fail to retrieve them, and the Rebels need to successfully launch two attacks that the Empire should be able to predict. Is an extra card really necessary?

2. I mentioned this in an earlier thread, but I disagree with your supposition that using the Death Star Plans a 2nd time represents executing the exact same strategy as before- I don't think there's anything in the game as it stands to back that up. I posted this in a different thread, but consider that the objective can just as easily represent defecting Imperials onboard shutting down the station's shields at a key moment, bribing the engineers involved to add in a key weakness, or having some rebel operatives smuggling in some massive explosives that would allow Rebel strike craft to shut off the Death Star's life support. With a little imagination, the sky is the limit!

It's for these reasons above that I'm not entirely convinced the armored exhaust ports are necessary for gameplay or thematic reasons. All that said, if you and your gaming partners are finding that both death stars blowing up is a too-common occurrence, there's no reason at all that you can't houserule a card in!

I agree 100% that the Death Star shield generator is a really weird omission, particularly since the darn thing is even included in the game's box art! The most elegant implementation I've seen proposed would be to make it a 2R Imperial structure that protects the DSUC while standing and allows the Empire to deploy troops directly to the DSUC's remote system.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Verona
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Are the Death Stars really supposed to be liabilities though? Thematically, the Empire wasn't ever trying to hide them from the Rebels out of fear of the repercussions of having them destroyed. The Death Stars were front and center against the Rebellion, and really were only liabilities in the sense that the Empire sunk a lot of resources into them. But that's represented in other game terms (drawing the second Death Star project, playing it, protecting the DSUC while it is fragile).

I think that's where the game slips up with the Death Stars. The benefit the Rebels get for destroying them is so significant in game terms that it encourages the Empire to hide away their Death Stars instead of putting them on the front lines where they belong.

It's the same problem that manifests when the Rebels are discouraged from recruiting Luke because of the potential extra pain from Lure of the Dark Side. Or when the Empire keeps Vader or Palpatine off the front lines near the game's climax becaus of Return of the Jedi. I don't think the design properly factors in just how huge the value of reputation points are, and how it warps in-game incentives.

If I were to tweak the Death Stars it would start by adjusting the reputation gain from successful Death Star plans. For example, drop them to ones and spot the Rebels an extra reputation point at the start of the game. I've also toyed around with the idea of an alternate Tarkin action card that let's him "go down with the ship" to reduce the reputation lost from a destroyed Death Star. "Evacuate? In our moment of triumph?"

And, yes, the Death Star project should somehow also drop a shield generator. I also would have liked the second Death Star plans objective card to have an image relating to the a Return of the Jedi briefing, just as a visual thing.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Saro Gumusyan

New York
msg tools
It would be a little neat to implement the Death Star II in the game with it's own Death Star Plans to replace the duplicate Tier III objective. Not that it matters much but you could up the carrying capacity to ten and to represent a more efficient Superlaser and boosted defenses you could give it five red dice. It forces the Rebel player to dig deeper into Tier 3 as once they are comfortably in Tier 2 Rebels don't Infiltrate as often given the favorable objectives.

Granted that still might not provide enough motivation to build a second Death Star but in principle it should be an upgrade over the original.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Niall Smyth
Japan
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't hide the Death Star away. It carries 7 TIEs and a single ATAT or ATST and goes stomping. I keep an eye on the Objective Deck and try and get rid of the plans, or check for them, through the interrogation-type missions. If the Rebels have a significant Fighter fleet somewhere, and Luke or Wedge for One In A Million, I become more careful. But I don't hide.

As for the thematic issues, well, that's more complex. The Empire THOUGHT the Death Star was amazing, but even Vader himself warned against that. Tarkin's overconfidence got him killed too. The Death Star was a focal point, and a decisive battle. Whether it was a powerhouse or liability in the movie depended on how that battle turned out. In the movie, the good guys won. Big surprise :-)

In our games? It's undecided. The Death Star, used well, can win you the game. Used poorly, against a clever and audacious Rebel player, it can lose the game. That sounds perfectly thematic to me.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derry Salewski
United States
Augusta
Maine
flag msg tools
. . . give a ship.
mbmbmbmbmb
poshniallo wrote:
I don't hide the Death Star away. It carries 7 TIEs and a single ATAT or ATST and goes stomping.


Am I missing something?

What does it stomp? That doesn't really auto kill any group troops and the ties could be used elsewhere since the DS is indestructible early on.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Saro Gumusyan

New York
msg tools
AS long as the DS has at least five TIEs you can move it around with relative confidence. But beware Plan the Assault! Only one mission but it's a killer. Plus this is one case where Hidden Fleet can scare off a Death Star by unloading a bunch of fighters next door. It can always move away but then it's mission accomplished for the Rebels.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Niall Smyth
Japan
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
scifiantihero wrote:
poshniallo wrote:
I don't hide the Death Star away. It carries 7 TIEs and a single ATAT or ATST and goes stomping.


Am I missing something?

What does it stomp? That doesn't really auto kill any group troops and the ties could be used elsewhere since the DS is indestructible early on.


I meant stomping generally, not just on the ground. The DS plus some TIEs and an ATAT just in case, can go base-hunting, destroying anything they come across. If I stumble across the base, it's Super Laser time!

I leave the TIEs there as some will die in conflicts, and it stops me having to worry about when to shore up the DS's defences. Plus, they can kill any Rebel Fighters they encounter before the Rebs have a chance to retreat.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joshua Schutte
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
Clearly no one is listening to this guy's opinion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agcRwGDKulw
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thomas with Subtrendy
msg tools
mbmbmb
houjix wrote:
Are the Death Stars really supposed to be liabilities though? Thematically, the Empire wasn't ever trying to hide them from the Rebels out of fear of the repercussions of having them destroyed. The Death Stars were front and center against the Rebellion, and really were only liabilities in the sense that the Empire sunk a lot of resources into them. But that's represented in other game terms (drawing the second Death Star project, playing it, protecting the DSUC while it is fragile).


Maybe the Empire didn't see them as liabilities, but that doesn't mean they weren't. It was bad enough when DS1 fell, but DS2's destruction was devastating for them.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mr. Body
msg tools
Darth Coupon wrote:
AS long as the DS has at least five TIEs you can move it around with relative confidence. But beware Plan the Assault! Only one mission but it's a killer. Plus this is one case where Hidden Fleet can scare off a Death Star by unloading a bunch of fighters next door. It can always move away but then it's mission accomplished for the Rebels.


This is totally not the case in my experience. If even a SINGLE rebel fighter survives the round, they get to roll the forty-something percent chance of blowing it up. It's not hard to get enough fighters that they're all but guaranteed for some to survive one round of 5 black dice. This isn't even considering the "one in a million" card that WILL blow up the death star guaranteed if even a single fighter survives the first round, which is not at all hard to do even with max black dice firing at them.

The death star is never safe. I'd argue that it's never even relatively safe once stage 2 objectives are out. You could concentrate the entire Empire fleet around it and it's still a coin flip at best of blowing up, guaranteed at worst.

I think an easy fix would be to change the rules that "the blow up roll" gets one die PER surviving fighter at the end of a round. The rebels would actually have to mass, and a strong black die defense cut actually cut them down to only 1 or 2 dice trying to score an explosion roll. You'd also have to tweak the "one in a million" card to not guarantee an explosion.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Saro Gumusyan

New York
msg tools
But if you have a Death Star with five TIEs and a decent leader (two cards) you're getting plenty of dice. The killer is having your opponent draw Outmaneuver or getting a few Defensive Formations. Of course getting Unstoppable Assault is the best case scenario.

Besides, I said "relative" confidence. If you see the Rebels loading up on fighters then of course you should be cautious. If it's a few, you can take your chances.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Umstattd
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The Death Star isn't just meant to be a liability. In many ways the Death Star was supposed to be the new capital of the empire. With the abolition of the senate the Death Star was the source of empire control and thus the center of power in the galaxy. Making it the ultimate liability that requires the ultimate protection.

This is why the rebels don't just auto win if they take Corescaunt (like in other games where taking an enemy capital is an auto win.) Because the Death Star is almost more of a capital.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mr. Body
msg tools
But even the absolute best defenses are still essentially facing a coin flip in handing the rebels 2 sympathy points.

That is the best case scenario the empire can hope for: a coin flip.

The mechanic needs to change.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Umstattd
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
BillyBabel wrote:


1. A card from the projects deck that requires 2 logistics (so it'll require two people to be assigned to it) called "armored exhaust ports"



Stick with theme and at least call it "ray shielded exhaust ports." don't just make shit up. Armoring an exhaust port make it lose it's entire purpose.

And the second Death Star wasn't destroyed using DSP it was destroyed by normal fighter damage.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Umstattd
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The only thing I might be for is that when second death star is completed the rebels lose a reputation. But that might be too strong. But I feel it's thematic as the completion of a DS would be a significant setback to the rebellion politically.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Umstattd
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
fahbs2000 wrote:
But even the absolute best defenses are still essentially facing a coin flip in handing the rebels 2 sympathy points.

That is the best case scenario the empire can hope for: a coin flip.

The mechanic needs to change.


The best scenario is to avoid the scenario all together. The empire should do everything in their power to avoid a fighter confrontation with the DS or to bait the rebels into a trap.

here we have people arguing fighters are OP for the rebels due to DSP while in other threads people argue that Utupau is OP and an auto pick for build alliance. Interesting.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
jooice ZP
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
David Umstattd wrote:
The only thing I might be for is that when second death star is completed the rebels lose a reputation. But that might be too strong. But I feel it's thematic as the completion of a DS would be a significant setback to the rebellion politically.


I like this actually.

I don't think I will play with it, but it makes the whole "why should I build a second death star?" question more interesting.

It is true that if you have the Death Star Project, along with the Double our efforts and the deploy project (sorry the name escapes me, but it lets you deploy from space 2) all together you can build this in 1 turn and gain a reputation point, but that is not only incredibly lucky but also an interesting plan.

Good idea, i like it the more I think about it.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Billy Babel
United States
Guymon
Oklahoma
flag msg tools
David Umstattd wrote:
BillyBabel wrote:


1. A card from the projects deck that requires 2 logistics (so it'll require two people to be assigned to it) called "armored exhaust ports"



Stick with theme and at least call it "ray shielded exhaust ports." don't just make shit up. Armoring an exhaust port make it lose it's entire purpose.

And the second Death Star wasn't destroyed using DSP it was destroyed by normal fighter damage.


I'm not making shit up, it's literally stated that they armor the exhaust ports, that isn't speculation, it's what actually happened.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Umstattd
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
BillyBabel wrote:
David Umstattd wrote:
BillyBabel wrote:


1. A card from the projects deck that requires 2 logistics (so it'll require two people to be assigned to it) called "armored exhaust ports"



Stick with theme and at least call it "ray shielded exhaust ports." don't just make shit up. Armoring an exhaust port make it lose it's entire purpose.

And the second Death Star wasn't destroyed using DSP it was destroyed by normal fighter damage.


I'm not making shit up, it's literally stated that they armor the exhaust ports, that isn't speculation, it's what actually happened.


The second Death Star obviously had different weaknesses to the original death star. That's why the rebels need a second copy of Death Star plans. You're acting like the Rebels can use the same death star plans on two different death stars. Which they can't. You need a second set of Death Star plants to locate a new weakness in the second death star.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aron
Netherlands
flag msg tools
Life is game, you gotta enjoy the journey.
badge
Life may knock you down sometimes. Its up to you if you stand up and live your life to the fullest.
mbmbmbmbmb
David Umstattd wrote:
BillyBabel wrote:
David Umstattd wrote:
BillyBabel wrote:


1. A card from the projects deck that requires 2 logistics (so it'll require two people to be assigned to it) called "armored exhaust ports"



Stick with theme and at least call it "ray shielded exhaust ports." don't just make shit up. Armoring an exhaust port make it lose it's entire purpose.

And the second Death Star wasn't destroyed using DSP it was destroyed by normal fighter damage.


I'm not making shit up, it's literally stated that they armor the exhaust ports, that isn't speculation, it's what actually happened.


The second Death Star obviously had different weaknesses to the original death star. That's why the rebels need a second copy of Death Star plans. You're acting like the Rebels can use the same death star plans on two different death stars. Which they can't. You need a second set of Death Star plants to locate a new weakness in the second death star.


Well technically... you could use the first death star plans on the 2nd Death Star and leave the first Death Star untouched or later on with the 2nd death star plans.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.