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Tiny Epic Western» Forums » Rules

Subject: Broken iconography rss

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Francis K. Lalumiere
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Much has been said of the 3x vs xxx iconography choice.
But the Grand Hotel is probably the worst offender here, because its text contradicts the (completely backwards) intent of the iconography.

In the rules:
3x is said to mean "one each of three different resources."
xxx is said to mean "three of the same resource."

By that token, the Grand Hotel's mention of 2A should mean "one each of two different As," which highlights how the chosen iconography fails completely.
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Doesn't 2A mean two of the same? Then Yes, 3x should be 3 0f the same of whatever you choose.
 
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Michael Coe
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"3x is said to mean one each of three different resources."

That is not correct. 3x means choose an influence of your choice, 3 times. That could be any combination of 3, including 3 of one type, 1 of 3 types, 2 of one type one of another etc.
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Wally Jones
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So.......3x and xxx are the same?
 
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Barry Miller
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Rygel wrote:
So.......3x and xxx are the same?

No.

"3X" means choose an influence of your choice, 3 times. That could be any combination of 3, including 3 of one type, 1 of 3 types, 2 of one type one of another etc.

"XXX" means you must choose ONE influence, and gain three of that influence only.

While HIGHLY counter-intuitive, it's all made very clear in the FAQ printed on the box bottom.

 
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Barry Miller
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weishaupt wrote:
But the Grand Hotel is probably the worst offender here, because its text contradicts the (completely backwards) intent of the iconography.

The Grand Hotel icons don't follow the rules you quoted, so there is no contradiction.

Though I don't remember exactly where I saw the "A", "B", & "C" icons discussed, they work like this for the Grand Hotel:

"Pay 2 influence of Type A"
then,
"Gain 2 influence of Type B, and 2 influence of Type C"

The point being that this particular ability requires that all three types of Influence be manipulated for its use. This is the key! For example, the same ability, if using only the "X"s rule, would've been written like this:
"Pay XX, then gain XX and gain XX"
But that's even more confusing and isn't it! Which is why the "A"s, "B"s, & "C"s are used instead.

Now having said that, the "AB" used on The Graveyard is confusing to me. In this case, why not use, "XX"?


 
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Michael Coe
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bgm1961 wrote:

the "AB" used on The Graveyard is confusing to me. In this case, [i]why not use, "XX"?


Because you have to collect two different influence types. If it were XX then you'd get two of the same influence which isn't the case.
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Barry Miller
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mgcoe wrote:
bgm1961 wrote:

the "AB" used on The Graveyard is confusing to me. In this case, [i]why not use, "XX"?


Because you have to collect two different influence types. If it were XX then you'd get two of the same influence which isn't the case.

Michael, thanks much for jumping in! I was a dunderhead when I wrote that, as I actually did know what the "AB" means, as you describe. I had a brain fart.

I meant to ask why not use, "2X" instead ... but then of course that wouldn't work as doing so means that the player could choose either two of the same type or one each of two different types, which as you said is not the intent, hence the use of "AB"!


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Francis K. Lalumiere
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mgcoe wrote:
"3x is said to mean one each of three different resources."

That is not correct. 3x means choose an influence of your choice, 3 times. That could be any combination of 3, including 3 of one type, 1 of 3 types, 2 of one type one of another etc.

Quite right, my mistake.

3x means three influences of your choice, and not necessarily different.
But I'm still spending entire games correcting people who always assume the reverse. How on earth anyone would think xxx (and NOT 3x) means three of the same is beyond me.
 
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Michael Coe
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weishaupt wrote:
mgcoe wrote:
"3x is said to mean one each of three different resources."

That is not correct. 3x means choose an influence of your choice, 3 times. That could be any combination of 3, including 3 of one type, 1 of 3 types, 2 of one type one of another etc.

Quite right, my mistake.

3x means three influences of your choice, and not necessarily different.
But I'm still spending entire games correcting people who always assume the reverse. How on earth anyone would think xxx (and NOT 3x) means three of the same is beyond me.


The decision to go this route also involves graphic design. For instance, the Saloon winner's pot would have to be presented differently than all the other locations if we changed how the wilds pay out. I hope it doesn't slow down your games too much. Usually once it's explained during the rules explanation there's not an issue from my experience.
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Chris Hoffmann
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I'm honestly not questioning you and your friends' experience, but my intuition leads me to the exact opposite conclusion than yours.

To me

3x *obviously* means three independent choices
xxx *obviously* means you get one choice, but three matches of whatever you choose.

I mean I don't think you're crazy for interpreting things the way you do -- I can see where you're coming from. It's just the interpretation chosen by the designer makes the most sense to me also. Also, as pointed out later, it fits in with the AB iconography: two separate choices, and they have to be different from each other.

Though perhaps 3? would have been better than 3x.

It would be (mildly) interesting to try to figure out why you and I come to such different conclusions. Because I have a degree in Math? I'm a programmer? I'm from the USA and you apparently are Canadian???

 
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Barry Miller
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cjha wrote:
3x *obviously* means three independent choices
xxx *obviously* means you get one choice, but three matches of whatever you choose.
...
It would be (mildly) interesting to try to figure out why you and I come to such different conclusions.

It's interesting that you see this as the first instinctive, intuitive reading of "3X" vs "XXX". So I guess the gameplay comes naturally to you! So to answer the question you asked:

My intuition reads "3X" as three instances of "variable X". A singular "X" is normally interpreted as a singular valued variable. Thusly all three "X"s are considered to be the same variable.

Whereas "XXX" is normally interpreted as three separate variables, with each "X" being a variable that's independent of the other. Thusly the three "X"s can be different from each other and in any combination.

Above, I said it's my intuition... but everyone I've played with has thought exactly the same as me. They all raise an eyebrow with this rule, but as Michael explained above, once they're informed they (we) all get it and press on. It's just counter-intuitive given the logic I present above, is all.

But Michael explained why it is, and it's all good!

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Rainer Ahlfors
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I think the ONLY confusion stems from the mixing of X and A/B/C

2X = any two resources
2A = two of the same resource
XX = two of the same resource

Had XX or XXX consistently been 2A or 3A, I don't think people would be confused at all.

That said, it is extremely clear in the rules and various examples.
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Joao Rodrigues
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Just adding my two cents here, when I was reading the rules and cards I was sure that 3X were meant 3 of the same kind and X X X would be three different things. Just like Barry saide before, to me it is quite intuitive, that it is "3 times the same variable" and "3 different variables".

This is so much the case, that when I got to read the section where it explains it is the other way around, I laughed and thought to myself "wow, this is a weird missprint... how come they didn't notice this was wrong?"

I actually came here to see if there was any official word about it, like someone saying "sorry for this mistake" and all that... I'm kinda surprised that it is the way it is.

But this is no problem at all. Once explained, we all know and this will not hinder the game. But it is, in my point of view, a weird choice of iconography.
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Brad103
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mgcoe wrote:
The decision to go this route also involves graphic design. For instance, the Saloon winner's pot would have to be presented differently than all the other locations if we changed how the wilds pay out. I hope it doesn't slow down your games too much. Usually once it's explained during the rules explanation there's not an issue from my experience.


Wow!? Really this is the reason for it? You didn't want to have a number on a location mat!?

(X) < > (X)(X)
Winners Pot (X)(X)

-vs-
(X) < > 2(X)
Winners Pot X(2)

One card would look different. But it wouldn't be confusing. Instead all the location mats look similar. But one causes confusion. There are 5/6 location mats 7/12 bosses and 17/30 buildings that have icons on them. That's room for a lot of confusion.
Instead all the mats could have used the 2(X) iconology.

For example, have the Hideout show: < > 2

They'd match and make better sense.

It is what it is, but I think this could have been done better.

I really love this game though don't get me wrong, it is great fun, but the icons are annoying to explain/remember
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Francis K. Lalumiere
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In order to follow the established iconography, shouldn't the Grand Hotel use AA instead of 2A?

If the answer is that it's more practical/logical to use 2A, we're going in circles...
 
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Brandon B
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Obviously what's done is done at this point, but I just want to say what's obvious for me is 3x being three of the same resource (three times X = 3X, X being 1 variable) and XXX would be three separate variables. I do personally find it confusing.

I mean, once it's explained, fine. You could do whatever you wanted, like make a unicorn butt be the symbol for two of the same resource, so long as everyone agreed, but I feel like it was needlessly confusing.
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