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Epic Card Game» Forums » General

Subject: A Few Concerns Regarding Epic Worlds rss

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Josiah Fiscus
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With the Epic World Championships just a few weeks away, I am getting more and more excited about the event. It is sure to be extremely memorable and tons of fun. That said, I have a few concerns and I am hoping at least some of them can be addressed prior to the date of the event.



1. The lack of definitive tournament rules is troubling, especially with this quantity of prize money on the line. At a recent qualifier I attended, a judge was called over because a card from one player's deck was found on the floor. Neither player was certain whether it had fallen down during shuffling or been dropped from that player's hand. With no rules to adjudicate this, the judge, who was used to judging Magic tournaments, said that the ruling would be to shuffle the card into the player's deck and issue a warning. The Epic players there (both players in the game included) said this was not a good ruling. Unlike Magic, Epic has no shuffle effects. Cards that have been banished will not be seen again until a player's entire deck has been run though. Shuffling completely negates this aspect. Eventually, it was decided the card should just be banished. But this is just one example of a tournament situation that can occur for which there really need to be guidelines. When the ruling can mean difference of thousands of dollars, I think we'd all prefer that the ruling not be made on the fly.


2. The inability to acquire Uprising cards prior to the event is unfortunate, but largely beyond White Wizard's control. The solution of providing print-and-play for testing and then simply giving the cards to each qualifier, free of charge, is a generous and exciting gesture of goodwill. That said, it was specified each player would be given 3x copies. I would suggest that 4x be given instead. Otherwise, it will be impossible for each player to have a constructed deck prepared for Round 5 while still playing Dark Draft in Round 4.


3. I won't re-hash the discussion about professional Magic players being given spots without needing to qualify. It was a decision with lots of pros and cons, but ultimately seemed good to me. That said, the rationale for doing this was that it promoted the game by having some of the best card players in the world there. Given that, I would suggest that some portion (top 8? top 4?) of the competitors in this World Championship be automatically given a spot in next year's as well. Part of what really promotes the legitimacy of a game as worthy of tournament play is seeing the same competitors rise to the top of the standings each year. This would help with that, as well as perhaps easing some of the feelings of unfairness that some have about this decision.


4. One of the other very exciting aspects about Worlds is all the side events that will be happening. My flight out is not until Monday night, just on the off chance that I make Top 8, but I am certainly aware of the distinct possibility that my tournament will be over on Sunday. I'm sure I will play any side events on Monday, but it is disappointing to me that the very first 2017 Qualifier won't be run on Monday, but will instead be concurrent with the Championships on Sunday. This kind of ties in with the previous point, but if the people who made it to day 2 (Monday Top 8) were already guaranteed a spot in next year, this would allow the other 56 competitors (plus any others who wanted to join!) to spend their Monday playing for a spot in next Worlds. It may be too late for that to happen this year, I'm not sure. Any chance of running the SECOND 2017 Qualifier on Monday still? If not, maybe at least something to consider for next year.


5. It's strange that the formats for qualifier tournaments are so set in stone. Full constructed or else Sealed followed by Dark Draft. Why not singleton constructed? Why not cube? Why not dark draft the entire time? I'm personally a little concerned about my lack of cube experience for the first two rounds of the tournament, and this lack of experience is mostly because it's never been able to be offered as a tournament option prior to this. Short of "find 7 other friends", it's not easy to run an Epic cube casually in your house, so tournaments are a great place for this to occur. My hope is that for next season, the allowable qualifier types will be expanded. The reality is that the people who go 0-2 in the cube rounds essentially cannot qualify for day 2. Yet everyone made it this far on the basis of limited, dark draft, and constructed prowess. Having this situation in the first two rounds seems like a peculiar decision in light of that.



Regardless of all of this, I am very excited and grateful for the opportunity to participate. I'm still amazed at this level of prize support from a smaller company with a fledgling game. I only criticize because I love this game and want it to be the best it can be. Thanks for listening!
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Ian Taylor
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happyjosiah wrote:
With the Epic World Championships just a few weeks away, I am getting more and more excited about the event. It is sure to be extremely memorable and tons of fun. That said, I have a few concerns and I am hoping at least some of them can be addressed prior to the date of the event.



1. The lack of definitive tournament rules is troubling, especially with this quantity of prize money on the line. At a recent qualifier I attended, a judge was called over because a card from one player's deck was found on the floor. Neither player was certain whether it had fallen down during shuffling or been dropped from that player's hand. With no rules to adjudicate this, the judge, who was used to judging Magic tournaments, said that the ruling would be to shuffle the card into the player's deck and issue a warning. The Epic players there (both players in the game included) said this was not a good ruling. Unlike Magic, Epic has no shuffle effects. Cards that have been banished will not be seen again until a player's entire deck has been run though. Shuffling completely negates this aspect. Eventually, it was decided the card should just be banished. But this is just one example of a tournament situation that can occur for which there really need to be guidelines. When the ruling can mean difference of thousands of dollars, I think we'd all prefer that the ruling not be made on the fly.


2. The inability to acquire Uprising cards prior to the event is unfortunate, but largely beyond White Wizard's control. The solution of providing print-and-play for testing and then simply giving the cards to each qualifier, free of charge, is a generous and exciting gesture of goodwill. That said, it was specified each player would be given 3x copies. I would suggest that 4x be given instead. Otherwise, it will be impossible for each player to have a constructed deck prepared for Round 5 while still playing Dark Draft in Round 4.


3. I won't re-hash the discussion about professional Magic players being given spots without needing to qualify. It was a decision with lots of pros and cons, but ultimately seemed good to me. That said, the rationale for doing this was that it promoted the game by having some of the best card players in the world there. Given that, I would suggest that some portion (top 8? top 4?) of the competitors in this World Championship be automatically given a spot in next year's as well. Part of what really promotes the legitimacy of a game as worthy of tournament play is seeing the same competitors rise to the top of the standings each year. This would help with that, as well as perhaps easing some of the feelings of unfairness that some have about this decision.


4. One of the other very exciting aspects about Worlds is all the side events that will be happening. My flight out is not until Monday night, just on the off chance that I make Top 8, but I am certainly aware of the distinct possibility that my tournament will be over on Sunday. I'm sure I will play any side events on Monday, but it is disappointing to me that the very first 2017 Qualifier won't be run on Monday, but will instead be concurrent with the Championships on Sunday. This kind of ties in with the previous point, but if the people who made it to day 2 (Monday Top 8) were already guaranteed a spot in next year, this would allow the other 56 competitors (plus any others who wanted to join!) to spend their Monday playing for a spot in next Worlds. It may be too late for that to happen this year, I'm not sure. Any chance of running the SECOND 2017 Qualifier on Monday still? If not, maybe at least something to consider for next year.


5. It's strange that the formats for qualifier tournaments are so set in stone. Full constructed or else Sealed followed by Dark Draft. Why not singleton constructed? Why not cube? Why not dark draft the entire time? I'm personally a little concerned about my lack of cube experience for the first two rounds of the tournament, and this lack of experience is mostly because it's never been able to be offered as a tournament option prior to this. Short of "find 7 other friends", it's not easy to run an Epic cube casually in your house, so tournaments are a great place for this to occur. My hope is that for next season, the allowable qualifier types will be expanded. The reality is that the people who go 0-2 in the cube rounds essentially cannot qualify for day 2. Yet everyone made it this far on the basis of limited, dark draft, and constructed prowess. Having this situation in the first two rounds seems like a peculiar decision in light of that.



Regardless of all of this, I am very excited and grateful for the opportunity to participate. I'm still amazed at this level of prize support from a smaller company with a fledgling game. I only criticize because I love this game and want it to be the best it can be. Thanks for listening!


Hi Josiah,

1 Tournament rules are my fault I'm afraid. They are being published hopefully tomorrow.

2 I'm not sure I understand your point about the Dark Draft. We are providing the cards for the Dark Draft, so players should be able to use their 3x copies for constructed as they wish, because the limited formats will have the cards provided by us.

3 We will be announcing something this week regarding this.

4 Interesting idea, and worthy of discussion.

5 We will have extra cubes available on Saturday, mainly for side events, but I'm hoping we have a spare one or two so qualified people can practice the format. Wherever we put the pod draft rounds, players would run into the same problem.

We will have info docs up this week regarding rounds and other pieces of information that players need to know (as well as the rest of WWGF).

Ian Taylor
Director of Organized Play
White Wizard games
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Josiah Fiscus
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IanWWG wrote:

Hi Josiah,

1 Tournament rules are my fault I'm afraid. They are being published hopefully tomorrow.

2 I'm not sure I understand your point about the Dark Draft. We are providing the cards for the Dark Draft, so players should be able to use their 3x copies for constructed as they wish, because the limited formats will have the cards provided by us.

3 We will be announcing something this week regarding this.

4 Interesting idea, and worthy of discussion.

5 We will have extra cubes available on Saturday, mainly for side events, but I'm hoping we have a spare one or two so qualified people can practice the format. Wherever we put the pod draft rounds, players would run into the same problem.

We will have info docs up this week regarding rounds and other pieces of information that players need to know (as well as the rest of WWGF).

Ian Taylor
Director of Organized Play
White Wizard games


Thank you for the quick response!

1. Great to hear about the tournament rules. Looking forward to reading over them.

2. I wasn't aware that all draft cards would be provided on loan by WWG. That completely satisfies this concern. Thank you!

As for the rest, thanks again for listening. I'll keep an eye on the site this week for the updates!
 
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Brad Minnigh
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I agree with those points. I'd like to push point 5 a little further. This is probably more for the future events, and not something to be changed before Worlds.

I am starting to think that the qualifying Limited format with Dark Draft in the finals was a mistake. It could obviously just be me, and I love the Dark Draft format, but it feels odd that we switch to that format in the finals.

In Constructed, you build a deck and play it all the way through. You are rewarded for having a good deck and making meta decisions and stuff like that. You are rewarded for playing the "worse" deck in the top 4/8 if you do particularly well. In Limited, as long as you make the top cut, it's a clean slate. It might not be beneficial to play the player with the worst best deck as now you do Dark Draft. All of your good decisions in Limited deck building are for naught in the finals.

And to top it all off, I feel like Dark Draft runs the risk of being the most random format other than random 30 cards dealt out. As I said I love the format, but it's possible to get unlucky packs where you give your opponent a ton of good cards, and they give you crap in return. I have played a decent amount of Dark Draft and I feel like I can get screwed way more than a Limited draft sheet or stuff like that.

I agree with Josiah that if we have Dark Draft, I think it should be the entire tournament. That would spread out the luck and allow the better players in the format to shine. And it would more likely reward the good players that make the top cut. I think it's better than a sudden change in format that rewards much different playstyles.

I would also be in favor of a medley tournament like what you are doing for worlds, and just have the preliminary rounds be an assortment of Limited and Dark Draft or Cube, and then maybe Constructed or something less random in the finals. If you really wanted to have the multiple formats thing.

Just my 2 cents.
 
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Josiah Fiscus
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gamjuven wrote:
I agree with those points. I'd like to push point 5 a little further. This is probably more for the future events, and not something to be changed before Worlds.

I am starting to think that the qualifying Limited format with Dark Draft in the finals was a mistake. It could obviously just be me, and I love the Dark Draft format, but it feels odd that we switch to that format in the finals.

In Constructed, you build a deck and play it all the way through. You are rewarded for having a good deck and making meta decisions and stuff like that. You are rewarded for playing the "worse" deck in the top 4/8 if you do particularly well. In Limited, as long as you make the top cut, it's a clean slate. It might not be beneficial to play the player with the worst best deck as now you do Dark Draft. All of your good decisions in Limited deck building are for naught in the finals.

And to top it all off, I feel like Dark Draft runs the risk of being the most random format other than random 30 cards dealt out. As I said I love the format, but it's possible to get unlucky packs where you give your opponent a ton of good cards, and they give you crap in return. I have played a decent amount of Dark Draft and I feel like I can get screwed way more than a Limited draft sheet or stuff like that.

I agree with Josiah that if we have Dark Draft, I think it should be the entire tournament. That would spread out the luck and allow the better players in the format to shine. And it would more likely reward the good players that make the top cut. I think it's better than a sudden change in format that rewards much different playstyles.

I would also be in favor of a medley tournament like what you are doing for worlds, and just have the preliminary rounds be an assortment of Limited and Dark Draft or Cube, and then maybe Constructed or something less random in the finals. If you really wanted to have the multiple formats thing.

Just my 2 cents.


I don't think Dark Draft is anywhere near the most random limited format. In fact, I think it's the limited format with the highest degree of player control. But I agree it would be nice to allow for other formats in the qualifiers.
 
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Nathan Davis
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With regards to the Cube Draft being first - the timing of the 0-2 won't really matter for if you make it to the top 8.

Some people will make it with a 5-2 record, most won't. Since we are paying relevant cash prizes for placement all the way down to 40th place, people will have reason to stay and play through to the final round. This means that the tiebreaker, Opponents Match Win Percentage, will be a pretty good measure whether or not Cube Draft is first, last, or in the middle.

We put it first for logistical reasons: Cube Draft is difficult to set up. By putting it first, we will ensure* eight 8-player drafts, making it equal across pods. Also, we want the win-and-in rounds to be with constructed decks because the coverage will be more meaningful to more people.

So to sum it up: two losses in any format will make it very difficult, but not impossible, to make the top 8.

- Nathan Davis
White Wizard Games

* Technically we could have no-shows at the event, but we are going to try to fill those in with additional LCQs or through the "standby list" (of people who finished second in an LCQ).

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Josiah Fiscus
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NathanWWG wrote:
With regards to the Cube Draft being first - the timing of the 0-2 won't really matter for if you make it to the top 8.

Some people will make it with a 5-2 record, most won't. Since we are paying relevant cash prizes for placement all the way down to 40th place, people will have reason to stay and play through to the final round. This means that the tiebreaker, Opponents Match Win Percentage, will be a pretty good measure whether or not Cube Draft is first, last, or in the middle.

We put it first for logistical reasons: Cube Draft is difficult to set up. By putting it first, we will ensure* eight 8-player drafts, making it equal across pods. Also, we want the win-and-in rounds to be with constructed decks because the coverage will be more meaningful to more people.

So to sum it up: two losses in any format will make it very difficult, but not impossible, to make the top 8.

- Nathan Davis
White Wizard Games

* Technically we could have no-shows at the event, but we are going to try to fill those in with additional LCQs or through the "standby list" (of people who finished second in an LCQ).



I agree that the order of the events isn't relevant. It would just be sad to go 5-2 with your losses being in Cube (which you've never played in a tournament setting) and not making it. But yes, I wouldn't expect anyone to drop from the day 1 until they have 5 losses.
 
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Josiah Fiscus
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Looking forward to reading the tournament rules and seeing the announcement about video coverage and other Worlds info. Sounded like it should be today or tomorrow. Waiting with bated breath!
 
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Ian Taylor
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happyjosiah wrote:
Looking forward to reading the tournament rules and seeing the announcement about video coverage and other Worlds info. Sounded like it should be today or tomorrow. Waiting with bated breath!


Putting a bow on it now. Couple of hours. It's a big bow.

Ian Taylor
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Derek Arnold
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They said the tournament will be streaming on their Twitch channel.
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Josiah Fiscus
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EpicAgenda wrote:
They said the tournament will be streaming on their Twitch channel.


I hope they put the stream up on youtube as well. It would be cool to watch the matches I couldn't watch since I was currently playing a different match.
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Christian Kløve
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happyjosiah wrote:
EpicAgenda wrote:
They said the tournament will be streaming on their Twitch channel.


I hope they put the stream up on youtube as well. It would be cool to watch the matches I couldn't watch since I was currently playing a different match.


I agree completely. Especially for us in other timezones.
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