$18.00
GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters: 70.5

4,882 Supporters

$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
30.8% of Goal | 28 Days Left

Support:

Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
8 Posts

Kingdom Death: Monster» Forums » Variants

Subject: Encumbrance and Lost Gear in KDM rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Ben V
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmb
Disclaimer: this is not about increasing paper-work or striving for an unrealistic verisimilitude. I understand KD:M is not an RPG, and this is not about that.

So I've been in a bit of a Kingdom Death slump since the expansions arrived, having played very little due to scheduling conflicts with my gaming group, but we're looking at starting back in with a new campaign in the coming weeks. As the game owner and host, I'm trying to pimp out my set to be a Deluxe Kingdom Death experience: making custom trays, 3D printing a Hunt Phase party marker, customized sheets and tokens, and so forth. I also want to incorporate a few small house rules into the game to make a few things jive a bit better with our sensibilities.

Along these lines, I was looking at the issue of gear getting returned to the settlement, even on a TPK. This is a bit gamey, and we want to change it up so that gear is lost more organically. But the Death Mode variant listed in the back of the rulebook doesn't really satisfy, as making all items Irreplaceable basically makes the truly Irreplaceable items less limited. I'd like something that keeps Irreplaceable items as a special case, but that also gives a better feeling of characters hauling their loot home--or leaving it--after a battle. This also applies to the death principles. I love them, but they're a bit silly when you look at a TPK in the Showdown or Hunt phase resulting in benefits for the far-flung settlement.


House-rule: Losing Gear and Encumbrance
All gear that is on a survivor that dies is lost unless picked up by another surviving character present. Irreplaceable items cannot be picked up by other players--even in the mortal rigors of death, even in the face of abject terror, the character clings to the precious piece of gear. Characters who die in hunt events may have their gear recovered if and only if they are not wiped out from existence or otherwise lost--there needs to be a body to recover or a chance to liberate their gear before the inevitable doom.

When each character leaves the Showdown Phase, they can return with a total of 12 items (full gear grid plus 3 items), whether that's gear cards or resource cards. An unlimbered dead survivor may be carried as a single item for the purposes of death principles.



Impressions? I'm trying to decide on how to limit picking things up in a Showdown. Should characters have to move over the deceased to take their stuff? I lean towards making it an activation to pick up any number of items on a single adjacent space--gear picked up will still be unusable, as it gets bundled up and not stowed/equipped for use. I've also been thinking that if the survivors win everyone should get a chance to keep looting the board if the so desire (useful in the case of Antelope hunts in particular), but at some cost. I was thinking of something along the lines of each extra turn spent looting after the monster is slain should incur a roll on the hunt table, or possibly a custom table I make. This way there's a sense that as the monster is killed, the survivors feel a void open up in the horror of the world--they know they should stay and gather up their fallen, but they also know that every moment they linger there's a chance of more bizarre monstrosities befalling them.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick Wirtz
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
I think that's a pretty good instinct. I was playing with some sort of randomizing element, but I think yours is probably better.

The only problem I have with it is that that cap might be too low: a regular level 3 lion, for instance, will drop 12 resources and, with some crits, that could easily bump up to 16 or so. It also interacts weirdly with gear that allows you to bring along extra resources.

I might try something like, 12 items with resources counting as 1/2 item per.

Don't really think the retrieving elements are working for me, IDK, I guess it would depend on the risk, but KD does reward conservative play already, so I'm not sure what would be balanced in that framework.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
ArtSchool
Spain
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
dunadin777 wrote:
Disclaimer: this is not about increasing paper-work or striving for an unrealistic verisimilitude. I understand KD:M is not an RPG, and this is not about that.

So I've been in a bit of a Kingdom Death slump since the expansions arrived, having played very little due to scheduling conflicts with my gaming group, but we're looking at starting back in with a new campaign in the coming weeks. As the game owner and host, I'm trying to pimp out my set to be a Deluxe Kingdom Death experience: making custom trays, 3D printing a Hunt Phase party marker, customized sheets and tokens, and so forth. I also want to incorporate a few small house rules into the game to make a few things jive a bit better with our sensibilities.

Along these lines, I was looking at the issue of gear getting returned to the settlement, even on a TPK. This is a bit gamey, and we want to change it up so that gear is lost more organically. But the Death Mode variant listed in the back of the rulebook doesn't really satisfy, as making all items Irreplaceable basically makes the truly Irreplaceable items less limited. I'd like something that keeps Irreplaceable items as a special case, but that also gives a better feeling of characters hauling their loot home--or leaving it--after a battle. This also applies to the death principles. I love them, but they're a bit silly when you look at a TPK in the Showdown or Hunt phase resulting in benefits for the far-flung settlement.


House-rule: Losing Gear and Encumbrance
All gear that is on a survivor that dies is lost unless picked up by another surviving character present. Irreplaceable items cannot be picked up by other players--even in the mortal rigors of death, even in the face of abject terror, the character clings to the precious piece of gear. Characters who die in hunt events may have their gear recovered if and only if they are not wiped out from existence or otherwise lost--there needs to be a body to recover or a chance to liberate their gear before the inevitable doom.

When each character leaves the Showdown Phase, they can return with a total of 12 items (full gear grid plus 3 items), whether that's gear cards or resource cards. An unlimbered dead survivor may be carried as a single item for the purposes of death principles.



Impressions? I'm trying to decide on how to limit picking things up in a Showdown. Should characters have to move over the deceased to take their stuff? I lean towards making it an activation to pick up any number of items on a single adjacent space--gear picked up will still be unusable, as it gets bundled up and not stowed/equipped for use. I've also been thinking that if the survivors win everyone should get a chance to keep looting the board if the so desire (useful in the case of Antelope hunts in particular), but at some cost. I was thinking of something along the lines of each extra turn spent looting after the monster is slain should incur a roll on the hunt table, or possibly a custom table I make. This way there's a sense that as the monster is killed, the survivors feel a void open up in the horror of the world--they know they should stay and gather up their fallen, but they also know that every moment they linger there's a chance of more bizarre monstrosities befalling them.


I had the same idea when i started playing KDM. I also complemented it with the showdown rule you point out: survivors could pick the dead teamate's items (except for wearable gear -armor) by moving to his corpse and spending an activation. Felt more realistic to me (Why can't I grab that sword from the hands of the dead man?).

Your proposal is pretty cool, but it didn't work for us for a very simple reason: losing the complete gearset of 4 survivors on a complete team kill means no resources that round + the gear loss, and that is simply too much to withstand, especially if you happen to suffer this early in the game. It just not possible to recover from such a blow, so losing an entire group of survivors with all their gear usually meant game over. Even worse, to avoid risking the loss of all our gear we ended up doing strange things when facing hard foes, like sending 4 "level-0" naked survivors to face the Butcher at year 4 and just die. It was just not fun.

I ended up toying with another idea which I actually never tried: you can recover dead men's gear during the hunt phase if you happen to get to the same location of the hunt board where the showdown started. It was just an idea, but would probably wouldn't work either because of the randomness of the hunt phase, so there's really not much you can do to reach the point where the former team was lost, so it was mostly a matter of luck (depending on how far from the start you were).

Please let us know of any progress or actual experience with these rules!



2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lyle Chipperson
msg tools
mbmb
Maybe if you get a total party kill you can use the next year on a "exploration" mission just to retrieve the gear , since it's not a hunt it doesn't have the hunt phase of chasing a monster, but it would need a monster added in a random way to make the mission more difficult, is up to the survivors if they just retrieve the gear ( use a survival to get gear up to filling the gear grid ) and then flee ( going out of the board ) or maybe they can fight the monster


Thing with this will be avoid abusing this to skip the hunt phase, for which there should be some conditions like

- surviros can go on exploration only when there is gear of a dead survivor outside

- the monster and level, will be decided at random


Anyway this is just an idea I had that maybe can complement dunadin777 ideas.


Keep on bringin the variants people!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Death Jester
msg tools
mb
Gear wouldnt be lost in a Nemesis fight though as you are in the settlement.

Also with your house rule I would probably double the resources you get from a successful showdown. That way you have more but losing gear is fluid and may be frequent. Double the resources represents the size of the creatures better anyway.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
The Awaited King
msg tools
I also had a big problem with the fact that lost equipment "teleports" back to the settlement, but in the end I don't think this is what happens.

I think that every year people from your settlement do a number of activities, the hunt we play being the main and the biggest one, but it's not like they sit doing nothing between those.

And when you think about it that way, then I think that during this year they have to build and repair stuff all the time and the gear you have kind of represents your Settlement ability to produce a given number of equipment every year.

This means that when you suffer a TPK or any lost really it's not like they take the gear back, it's just your Settlement has a year or so to rebuilt all they lost.

This is why Irreplaceable items don't come back. No one knows how to rebuilt them but all the other stuff is just that, something they are able to rebuild more or less often, depending how many things you have built.


3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Krzysztof RabidBlackDog
Poland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
From my point of view, the hunt isn't the only occasion anyone goes out of the settlement. I think that the people living right there are going in and out (but keeping it safe) for various reasons, I don't know, to get water, to gather berries or common materials to build simplest of things like dishes and utensils.

Going hunting is a radical different escapade. The group is tracking a monster, hiding, going off the known paths thus encountering strange things and events during the hunt phase.
Imagine the society for which the hunt is a crucial element of survival and the group of hunters preparing to depart on a hunt:

- So where are you going to hunt for the Lion?
- Last time we found one by the giant stone face. I think we may find another one a little further, left of the stone pillars, this area is wild.
- Okay, be safe.

It wouldn't be that a chosen group of hunters is going without preparation or knowledge and support of the whole society. So, if the monster kills all the hunters, and they never return I think the settlement would have a brief knowledge of where they might have gone and where to look for them. That kind of quest, not being a hunt so everybody is doing everything to avoid the monsters (not find them) and all other hazards might be a reason behind getting all the gear back.

I know it's a big simplification, but I find that kind of explanation thematic and making sense.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben V
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmb
Thanks everyone for the feedback. It’s nice to see some constructive thoughts from both persuasions--those who see this as a desirable rule and those who don’t. Sorry on my part for the delay in responding--I had composed something a bit ago while at work, but when I hit submit I must’ve timed out from all the little delays and lost the post. Plus, formatting so many quotes in one post was a bit of a pain.


I haven’t yet been able to test out this rule--with my wife sick Thanksgiving we we opted to wait for her to revive KD:M and gaming ended up being a pretty even split between sick wife, Conan, and Star Wars Rebellion. But one of the latest kickstarter updates (#8) previewed the Scout and mentioned a similar rule, so I felt it was a good impetus to revisit my house-rule.


Before I do that, though, some replies...



spiralingcadaver wrote:
The only problem I have with it is that that cap might be too low: a regular level 3 lion, for instance, will drop 12 resources and, with some crits, that could easily bump up to 16 or so. It also interacts weirdly with gear that allows you to bring along extra resources.


I might try something like, 12 items with resources counting as 1/2 item per.



That’s spot on. When I originally came up with this idea, I hadn’t thought about how big the drops from higher level monsters could be. Add in the occasional terrain resource and odd bits picked up in the hunt, and that number can really get up there. Also, since a single piece of gear is usually created from several resource cards, it makes sense that a resource card be a smaller load than a gear card.


I’ll amend the house-rule that up to two resource cards can be carried in place of a single gear.


spiralingcadaver wrote:
Don't really think the retrieving elements are working for me, IDK, I guess it would depend on the risk, but KD does reward conservative play already, so I'm not sure what would be balanced in that framework.



So you would rule that as soon as the battle is over you can hoover up whatever comrades or lost gear are on the board, provided you have the carrying space for them? It might be the better, simpler solution, but I would like there to be some sort of small denouement to the showdown, and this small bit might help with that. As it is, I feel like the transition of that final hit and then to the Settlement Phase is a bit less smooth than the Settlement -> Hunt -> Showdown rhythm.


”Shu1984” wrote:
Your proposal is pretty cool, but it didn't work for us for a very simple reason: losing the complete gearset of 4 survivors on a complete team kill means no resources that round + the gear loss, and that is simply too much to withstand, especially if you happen to suffer this early in the game. It just not possible to recover from such a blow, so losing an entire group of survivors with all their gear usually meant game over. Even worse, to avoid risking the loss of all our gear we ended up doing strange things when facing hard foes, like sending 4 "level-0" naked survivors to face the Butcher at year 4 and just die. It was just not fun



I think there are two parts to this. First, the TPK of the hunting party being made extra devastating. Not sure if this is a feature or a bug of my house-rule, but personally I’m leaning towards calling it a feature. I feel like there needs to be a bit more devastating distinction between a 3-kill and 4-kill hunt. Secondly, (as mentioned be Death Jester) I definitely think that Nemesis encounters, where the monster meets the survivors at their home, should not result in special loss of gear because it’s not leaving the immediate vicinity of the settlement.


Change: survivors only lose gear due to encumbrance on quarry hunts. Nemesis encounters recover gear as normal.


”dgenclass” wrote:
Maybe if you get a total party kill you can use the next year on an "exploration" mission just to retrieve the gear , since it's not a hunt it doesn't have the hunt phase of chasing a monster, but it would need a monster added in a random way to make the mission more difficult, is up to the survivors if they just retrieve the gear ( use a survival to get gear up to filling the gear grid ) and then flee ( going out of the board ) or maybe they can fight the monster




Thing with this will be avoid abusing this to skip the hunt phase, for which there should be some conditions like


- survivors can go on exploration only when there is gear of a dead survivor outside


- the monster and level, will be decided at random



Woof, that’s rough. Leaving the quarry type itself as random can be a huge swing factor, let alone randomizing level, too. I think sticking to a random monster type of the level last encountered would be sufficient, especially considering the recovery party is going into a fight with at least one set of gear missing. Also, it’d be a pretty dangerous act to do without the Pictographs innovation.


Gotta mull that one over more.


”DeathJester23” wrote:
Also with your house rule I would probably double the resources you get from a successful showdown. That way you have more but losing gear is fluid and may be frequent. Double the resources represents the size of the creatures better anyway.



That’s a good point, though I’m also probably going to group this house-rule with another one for a longer campaign that has multiple turns (“seasons”) per lantern year, so the individual hunt rewards will probably stay the same. If you weren’t playing with the long campaign rule, though, I’d probably say each hunt generates +2 basic resources. Doubling resources seems a bit much, and I especially think getting more monster resources would drastically affect balance.


@The Awaited King and RabidBlackDog


You guys are both right. Thematically, there’s a lot more going on per Lantern Year than these single showdowns, although I think I’d be surprised if survivors ventured beyond line of sight of their settlement (in the darkness, I imagine the hoard, pool, dragon, or garden are all really quite visible from miles away) without it being an on-screen event, so to speak.


But there’s some difficulty to these interpretations, too. First of all, there’s the fact that Death Mode exists as a suggested, official variant, so thematically both interpretations of things must work (common gear being automatically replaced or not). Secondly, if we’re to assume that even in a TPK the rest of the settlement wanders out there and gets everything anyway, then those clean-up guys are skirting past a lot of dangerous stuff to no ill-effect. That kind of jars my sense of the setting, since weeds are dangerous in KDM. Overall, I think your rationales are perfectly thematic and support the core game’s base mode, but these are the reasons why I want something slightly different going forward.


Wow, that's a long reply post. Sorry for the battlement of text, guys. I'll post up my amended house-rule separately a little bit after lunch break, as I think this post is long enough.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.