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Subject: New Game: no name yet, but, can you please tell me if the concept already exists? rss

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Lisandro Iaffar
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Hello! After a long time of meditation, recently i was able to give final form to a game for which the lead philosophy was: a simple game that gives the player two exact opposite objectives he can switch at any time.
The idea comes from a previous attempt to create a game computers could never dominate.
I did playtested it, looking for basic flaws and (honestly: to my surprise) it seems it may work (thats why im posting about it now; I couldnt find any obvious flaw, i even found nice strategies and counter strategies, but i just playtested it myself -and it was a mental pain to pretend to be two different players each with two opposite objectives in mind so i do not recommend it-).
Sadly to me, by now it doesnt look to be fun, but i hope its just because i playtested it myself. At least, I hope for you to find the concept interesting!

Equipment:
- 13x13 Go board.
- 46 white and black stones (for each player, respectively).

Rules:
- There cant be more than 46 total stones in the board at any time.
- At the beginning, the board is empty. Players play in turns.
- In his turn, a player must make 3 moves. Each move can consist, indistinctly, in:
a) Move a stone of his color that is already on the board (in a sole straight line, not jumping over any stones).
b) Place a stone of his color on the board. If at the beginning of the turn there is less than 46 stones on the board, the player must use at least one move to place a stone of his color on the board.
c) Take a stone of his color, or an enemy stone, out of the board (under the rule that allows this).
(To be clear: in your turn, you can make more than once the same kind of move -for example, three placements-, and you can move on the board the same stone more than once.)
- In his turn, a player can take from the board a stone of his color, or an enemy stone, if it’s surrounded (vertically, horizontally, or diagonally) by at least three enemy -respectively- stones.
- The winner is the first player who causes the board to have 46 stones all of the same color.

(There lays the magic: there are two exact opposite ways to do this
a) you can fill the board with your 46 stones, thus, taking away all enemy stones
b) you can take all your stones from the board yourself)

Potential problem: if both players are strong enough, and both have more fear to loose than wish for winning, it’s likely the game can degenerate in a interminable cycle, given that his bidirectional nature may make impossible for the game to be convergent in such situations. Personally, initially I accept this as a particularity of the game, but it will be a problem if the game is more prone to it (something surprisingly not detected in initial playtesting, tough totally feared before it).

And finally, again, the question: do anybody knows if this concept already exist?

I would really appreciate any observation (if you are going to make one, please, have no mercy, thanks )
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Robert Wesley
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Well, whilst 'moi' HATH already "espoused" upon "TWO TIMES!" Moves for Chess, Checkers, PLOY, etc. so, just stating THUS that you are aware of "such".

ALSO "up to 12-Ways" VARIANT of 9-Way "Tic Tac Toe"!
 
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Russ Williams
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Libertador wrote:
- The winner is the player who manage to prevent his opponent from taking all his stones from the board.

There lays the magic: there are two exact opposite ways to do this
a) you can fill the board with your 46 stones, thus, taking away all enemy stones
b) you can take all your stones from the board yourself


I'm confused what the victory condition is. Who is "his" in that first quoted sentence?

The winner is the player who manage to prevent his opponent from taking all of the winner's stones from the board.

or

The winner is the player who manage to prevent his opponent from taking all the opponent's stones from the board.

And a negative victory condition of "preventing" something seems a bit confusing (logically/linguistically). A positive victory condition of "achieving" something seems more easy to understand.

Would it be clearer and equivalent to say "The winner is the first player who causes the board to have 46 stones all of the same color"?

===

In any case, to answer your questions:

Offhand, I can't recall another specific game with an "all or nothing" type goal like that, but I have a feeling I've seen similar concepts. In some sense e.g. the traditional card game Hearts has this element: you want to take as few tricks as possible, unless you "shoot the moon" and take all 13 tricks.

The game as described does sound like it risks being drawish with a lot of inconclusive moving and capturing and replacing stones, but I don't know.
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Libertador wrote:


There lays the magic: there are two exact opposite ways to do this
a) you can fill the board with your 46 stones, thus, taking away all enemy stones
b) you can take all your stones from the board yourself


If I understand this correctly, this could be restated as:

The winner is the player who, in his turn, takes the last stone of any colour off the board. Correct?

In the whole rules, apart from the specific assignation of a colour to each player, I don't see where a colour would be tied to a player at all. If I understand it correctly, each player may place, move or remove stones of any colour up to 3 times per turn.

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Lisandro Iaffar
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GROGnads wrote:
Well, whilst 'moi' HATH already "espoused" upon "TWO TIMES!" Moves for Chess, Checkers, PLOY, etc. so, just stating THUS that you are aware of "such".

ALSO "up to 12-Ways" VARIANT of 9-Way "Tic Tac Toe"!


I couldnt understand a single word, i have an average level of english :/
(i tought you were making puns with the names of games that answer my question, but after searching everyone of them, its not the case so far, what you wanted to tell me?)
 
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Lisandro Iaffar
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mrmonkeyball wrote:
Libertador wrote:


There lays the magic: there are two exact opposite ways to do this
a) you can fill the board with your 46 stones, thus, taking away all enemy stones
b) you can take all your stones from the board yourself


If I understand this correctly, this could be restated as:

The winner is the player who, in his turn, takes the last stone of any colour off the board. Correct?

In the whole rules, apart from the specific assignation of a colour to each player, I don't see where a colour would be tied to a player at all. If I understand it correctly, each player may place, move or remove stones of any colour up to 3 times per turn.



Thats why i love this forum. Yes, thank you very much, thats a lot clearer and precise (im editing right now).

Im also editing the rules to make it clear that indeed a color is tied specifically to a player, thank you very much for that observation.
 
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Lisandro Iaffar
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russ wrote:
Libertador wrote:
- The winner is the player who manage to prevent his opponent from taking all his stones from the board.

There lays the magic: there are two exact opposite ways to do this
a) you can fill the board with your 46 stones, thus, taking away all enemy stones
b) you can take all your stones from the board yourself


I'm confused what the victory condition is. Who is "his" in that first quoted sentence?

The winner is the player who manage to prevent his opponent from taking all of the winner's stones from the board.

or

The winner is the player who manage to prevent his opponent from taking all the opponent's stones from the board.

And a negative victory condition of "preventing" something seems a bit confusing (logically/linguistically). A positive victory condition of "achieving" something seems more easy to understand.

Would it be clearer and equivalent to say "The winner is the first player who causes the board to have 46 stones all of the same color"?

===

In any case, to answer your questions:

Offhand, I can't recall another specific game with an "all or nothing" type goal like that, but I have a feeling I've seen similar concepts. In some sense e.g. the traditional card game Hearts has this element: you want to take as few tricks as possible, unless you "shoot the moon" and take all 13 tricks.

The game as described does sound like it risks being drawish with a lot of inconclusive moving and capturing and replacing stones, but I don't know.


Thank you very much for your answer
Your "equivalent" for that rule is even more precise, thank you very much!

(And yes, while making it, i feared that the game would be drawish, but again, surprisingly, after playtesting it doesnt seems like it will be the case. I should play with someone else to confirm)
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David Buckley
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Libertador wrote:
GROGnads wrote:
Well, whilst 'moi' HATH already "espoused" upon "TWO TIMES!" Moves for Chess, Checkers, PLOY, etc. so, just stating THUS that you are aware of "such".

ALSO "up to 12-Ways" VARIANT of 9-Way "Tic Tac Toe"!


I couldnt understand a single word, i have an average level of english :/
(i tought you were making puns with the names of games that answer my question, but after searching everyone of them, its not the case so far, what you wanted to tell me?)


His post made no sense to me either and I'm a native English speaker. I don't think most of grognard's posts are even supposed to make sense.
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Jeffrey D Myers
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You just have to read between the lines....
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Robert Wesley
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GROGnads wrote:
Well, whilst 'moi' HATH already "espoused" upon "TWO TIMES!" Moves for Chess, Checkers, PLOY, etc. so, just stating THUS that you are aware of "such".

ALSO "up to 12-Ways" VARIANT of 9-Way "Tic Tac Toe"!
Libertador wrote:
I couldnt understand a single word, i have an average level of english :/
(i tought you were making puns with the names of games that answer my question, but after searching everyone of them, its not the case so far, what you wanted to tell me?)
Buckersuk wrote:
His post made no sense to me either and I'm a native English speaker. I don't think most of grognard's posts are even supposed to make sense.
peacmyer wrote:
You just have to read between the lines....
Well, with Chess/Checkers/"GO"/Ploy/etc. then you MAKE a single MOVE, while 'moi' VARIANT had you MOVE/PLACE up to TWICE during your TURN in those. With PLOY, then you could 'rotate' as ONE MOVE and then proceed with MOVE again, or perform either of these ONCE with 2 separate pieces.
 
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Robert Wesley
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peacmyer wrote:
You just have to read between the lines....
The GAME of 'Strategyrotationists'!
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Lisandro Iaffar
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GROGnads wrote:
peacmyer wrote:
You just have to read between the lines....
The GAME of 'Strategyrotationists'!


Hooo Ok!! Interesting game indeed!
Not to be whimsical, but its reasonably far from the concept of my game. In "9-way tic tac toe" your objective is always and only to get more "wins" allways with the same simbol. There is full of games that have that "catch" detail that makes you give some push to your opponent, isnt?
 
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Robert Wesley
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It is with the "TWO TIMES!" MOVES-concept primarily, while YOURS is with THREE-placements as that in "GO"-ish sort.
 
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Lisandro Iaffar
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GROGnads wrote:
It is with the "TWO TIMES!" MOVES-concept primarily, while YOURS is with THREE-placements as that in "GO"-ish sort.


If i understood you correctly, then i must make clear that the number of moves is by no means a "concept" in this game, just a mechanical detail, not a but per-se.
 
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Robert Wesley
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ME = "move/place twice per TURN in Chess/Checkers/"GO"/PLOY/etc. even in that 9-Way Tic Tac Toe then."

whistle YOU = "place 3 "GO"-stones per TURN in yours."
 
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Lisandro Iaffar
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GROGnads wrote:
ME = "move/place twice per TURN in Chess/Checkers/"GO"/PLOY/etc. even in that 9-Way Tic Tac Toe then."

whistle YOU = "place 3 "GO"-stones per TURN in yours."


Risking to look as a retarded, i must admit: i still cant understand whats your point. I mean, i think i understand what you are saying, i just cant understand why you are saying that. I cant relate it to the game nor to my question. I dont want to borrow more of your time, but i must ask: could you please be more clear on whats your point?
 
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J Boyes
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Have you tried this game on much smaller boards? 2x2 4x4 6x6 etc.

I feel like as the game state becomes smaller there is probably a way to math out a win.
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Lisandro Iaffar
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Jpwoo wrote:
Have you tried this game on much smaller boards? 2x2 4x4 6x6 etc.

I feel like as the game state becomes smaller there is probably a way to math out a win.


That would be cool! I havent tryed that yet. For starting, i want to playtest the game with another player to see if it actually works (worths). If it does, i would definitely look for the maths behind it!
 
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Robert Wesley
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GROGnads wrote:
ME = "move/place twice per TURN in Chess/Checkers/"GO"/PLOY/etc. even in that 9-Way Tic Tac Toe then."

whistle YOU = "place 3 "GO"-stones per TURN in yours."
Libertador wrote:

Risking to look as a retarded, i must admit: i still cant understand whats your point. I mean, i think i understand what you are saying, i just cant understand why you are saying that. I cant relate it to the game nor to my question. I dont want to borrow more of your time, but i must ask: could you please be more clear on whats your point?
Oh, NO "risk" of that is warranted, so, you-'proclaim' FOR 3-Placement per TURN, and 'moi' 'proclaim' upon 2-Placement/Moves then. ALSO: One Move of a Piece per TURN in "Feudal" now, since; why not? It then is more akin of Chess with that. whistle
 
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Lisandro Iaffar
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GROGnads wrote:
GROGnads wrote:
ME = "move/place twice per TURN in Chess/Checkers/"GO"/PLOY/etc. even in that 9-Way Tic Tac Toe then."

whistle YOU = "place 3 "GO"-stones per TURN in yours."
Libertador wrote:

Risking to look as a retarded, i must admit: i still cant understand whats your point. I mean, i think i understand what you are saying, i just cant understand why you are saying that. I cant relate it to the game nor to my question. I dont want to borrow more of your time, but i must ask: could you please be more clear on whats your point?
Oh, NO "risk" of that is warranted, so, you-'proclaim' FOR 3-Placement per TURN, and 'moi' 'proclaim' upon 2-Placement/Moves then. ALSO: One Move of a Piece per TURN in "Feudal" now, since; why not? It then is more akin of Chess with that. whistle


I give up. I do am retarded. But, thank you very much for your time
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Robert Wesley
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Libertador wrote:
I give up. I do am retarded. But, thank you very much for your time

YOURS =
CCC
---

MINE =
CC
--
 
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Lisandro Iaffar
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GROGnads wrote:
Libertador wrote:
I give up. I do am retarded. But, thank you very much for your time

YOURS =
CCC
---

MINE =
CC
--


Ok, i will try: if i understand you correctly, you are saying that you already invented a game like the one i proposed, with the only difference that in your version a player is allowed to make only two moves per turn, instead of three, like in my version. Is that correct?
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Robert Wesley
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You're "close enough" in that YOURS is an entire "Game" on its own 'merits' and MINE are a Variant for them I've mentioned upon. You should have either "Trio or Tri"-'stones' somehow incorporated as a further 'distinction' about your sort.
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Lisandro Iaffar
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GROGnads wrote:
You're "close enough" in that YOURS is an entire "Game" on its own 'merits' and MINE are a Variant for them I've mentioned upon. You should have either "Trio or Tri"-'stones' somehow incorporated as a further 'distinction' about your sort.


Then, if while making a variant of another game you arrived to a game like the one i proposed, could you, please, tell me the name of that game? I would love to take a look!
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Robert Wesley
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An actual "game" of yet another: Triopoly
 
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