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Star Wars: Imperial Assault» Forums » Rules

Subject: Force throw and rebel controlled doors... rss

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Craig S.
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Pretty sure I know the answer; but there is disagreement within my group:

If a door does not block counting spaces for rebel figures adjacent to it, can Diala throw an Imperial figure through the door if she is adjacent to the door?

I am arguing that she can, because it is Diala doing the counting and not the imperial figure.
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Owen Sieber
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csouth154 wrote:
Pretty sure I know the answer; but there is disagreement within my group:

If a door does not block counting spaces for rebel figures adjacent to it, can Diala throw an Imperial figure through the door if she is adjacent to the door?


NO!
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Craig S.
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model359 wrote:
csouth154 wrote:
Pretty sure I know the answer; but there is disagreement within my group:

If a door does not block counting spaces for rebel figures adjacent to it, can Diala throw an Imperial figure through the door if she is adjacent to the door?


NO!


Pay no attention to Owen. He is the IP and he just doesn't want to get his ISB thrown through the door.
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Joe
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Diala's throw can push a figure 3 spaces and a "Push" moves a figure a specified number of spaces.

If the door doesn't block counting spaces, then she definitely can. Just make sure she is directly at the door. A door can only have 4 adjacent spaces, so being diagonal to the door doesn't count.
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Pasi Ojala
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What's the mission? What are the other rules? (For example Impassible terrain does not block Counting Spaces, but a figure cannot move or be pushed through.)

If the door blocks adjacency for Imperial figures, then my first guess would be no. Pushing by one space can only happen to an adjacent space, and those two spaces would not be adjacent for the pushed figure.

(Force Throw is only using Counting Spaces for determining a valid target - within 3 spaces, not for Pushing. Push says to move the figure X spaces, so normal movement restrictions apply.)
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Craig S.
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a1bert wrote:
What's the mission? What are the other rules? (For example Impassible terrain does not block Counting Spaces, but a figure cannot move or be pushed through.)

If the door blocks adjacency for Imperial figures, then my first guess would be no. Pushing by one space can only happen to an adjacent space, and those two spaces would not be adjacent for the pushed figure.


The mission is White Noise. Doors are lock to Imperial figures. They do not block movement, counting spaces or adjacency for rebel figures adjacent to them. Force Throw pushes the thrown figure three spaces. The pusher does the counting. If Diala is the pusher and adjacent to the door, shouldn't she be able to push the imperial figure through the door?
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Joe
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a1bert wrote:
What's the mission? What are the other rules? (For example Impassible terrain does not block Counting Spaces, but a figure cannot move or be pushed through.)

If the door blocks adjacency for Imperial figures, then my first guess would be no. Pushing by one space can only happen to an adjacent space, and those two spaces would not be adjacent for the pushed figure.


The question asked has nothing to do with impassable terrain. The question is whether a figure can be pushed through a door only open to the rebels.

While an imperial cannot count spaces through a door that is closed to them, the door is open in regards to the rebels. Since Diala is pushing, she can count spaces through the door if she is adjacent to it.
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Pasi Ojala
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See Push. It is not using Counting Spaces. Push says to move the figure the specified number of spaces. Movement says that the figure cannot move through walls, doors, or through blocking or impassible terrain edges, nor into blocking or impassible terrain spaces.

And the mission rules do not allow Imperial figures to move through doors.
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Craig S.
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a1bert wrote:
See Push. It is not using Counting Spaces. Push says to move the figure the specified number of spaces. Movement says that the figure cannot move through walls, doors, or through blocking or impassible terrain edges, nor into blocking or impassible terrain spaces.

And the mission rules do not allow Imperial figures to move through doors.


Ah...OK that makes sense. I thought it was a counting spaces thing.
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Joe
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See "Move X Spaces." It ignores movement costs.

Anyway, doors in IA are funny in that they are only closed or open. Except when special missions make them only open in certain cases. In this case, the door is open to a rebel when the rebel is adjacent. Thus when the push is being made, there is no door.
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Pasi Ojala
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In this mission Diala can Force Throw a figure on the other side of an adjacent door though, because within 3 spaces uses Counting Spaces (and the mission rule), but not through it.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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To be counting spaces (for the movement part), it would need to involve Placing a figure rather than Pushing it.

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Craig S.
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a1bert wrote:
Diala can Force Throw a figure on the other side of the door though, because within 3 spaces uses Counting Spaces.


Right. We're clear on that.
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Joe
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a1bert wrote:
Diala can Force Throw a figure on the other side of the door though, because within 3 spaces uses Counting Spaces.


What are you talking about Pasi?! Counting Spaces would not let you count through a door. The explanation you gave earlier was quoted from the Counting Spaces section of the RRG. The reason Diala can throw on the other side of the door or through a door is because in this case the door isn't there.
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Pasi Ojala
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Stl0369 wrote:
See "Move X Spaces." It ignores movement costs.

Yes, and Push does not use movement points.

Stl0369 wrote:
In this case, the door is open to a rebel when the rebel is adjacent. Thus when the push is being made, there is no door.

The mission rules do not say anything like that.
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Pasi Ojala
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Stl0369 wrote:
a1bert wrote:
Diala can Force Throw a figure on the other side of the door though, because within 3 spaces uses Counting Spaces.

What are you talking about Pasi?! Counting Spaces would not let you count through a door.

For this mission the mission rule allows Rebel figures Counting Spaces through an adjacent door. I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear, I fixed the wording.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Stl0369 wrote:
a1bert wrote:
Diala can Force Throw a figure on the other side of the door though, because within 3 spaces uses Counting Spaces.


What are you talking about Pasi?! Counting Spaces would not let you count through a door. The explanation you gave earlier was quoted from the Counting Spaces section of the RRG. The reason Diala can throw on the other side of the door or through a door is because in this case the door isn't there.

You are not reading the rule correctly and Pasi is correct. The door seems like it's not there for Rebel figures adjacent to the door. When pushing a non-Rebel figure towards the door, the door is still in place for that figure. Diala cannot Push it through the door as the door is indeed there.

If Diala is adjacent to the door, she can indeed use the ability on a figure on the other side of that door, though. She can't count through the door unless she is adjacent, though.
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Joe
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I'm not saying Push uses movement points. If it used movement points, it couldn't ignore costs could it?

As for the door, you can't shoot through a door or count spaces through a door or... I think we all know that when a door is closed, it is closed. In this case, the door doesn't block anything for the rebels when they are adjacent. The door is effectively open for that rebel.
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Pasi Ojala
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Golden Rules, RRG p.2 wrote:
Card abilities can override the rules listed in this guide. Mission rules can override both card abilities and rules from this guide.

Mission rules allow the adjacent rebel figures to do the things they allow, including Counting Spaces. The door is closed the whole time. Although it doesn't block rebel figures, it is very much blocking all imperial figures.
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Craig S.
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Pasi is correct. The intent may very well be for an adjacent rebel to act like the door doesn't exist for the purposes of anything they may want to do, but that is not what the rule as written allows.
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Joe
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Clipper wrote:

You are not reading the rule correctly and Pasi is correct. The door seems like it's not there for Rebel figures adjacent to the door. When pushing a non-Rebel figure towards the door, the door is still in place for that figure. Diala cannot Push it through the door as the door is indeed there.

If Diala is adjacent to the door, she can indeed use the ability on a figure on the other side of that door, though. She can't count through the door unless she is adjacent, though.


So the door doesn't block movement or counting spaces. Push moves a figure 3 spaces. I really don't see how Diala would not be able to throw a figure through the door.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Stl0369 wrote:
I'm not saying Push uses movement points. If it used movement points, it couldn't ignore costs could it?

It's still movement, though. It follows all movement rules except additional costs.

Quote:
In this case, the door doesn't block anything for the rebels when they are adjacent. The door is effectively open for that rebel.

The key here is you mention Rebels. It does not block Rebels. Diala could push a Rebel figure through a door, regardless of whether Diala was adjacent to the door. Diala cannot push a non-Rebel figure through a door, though, again regardless of whether Diala is adjacent to it. Even if the door is effectively open for Diala, she must follow the figure's rules when she is Pushing a figure. So the door is not considered open for the Pushed figure if it is not Rebel.
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Pasi Ojala
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Stl0369 wrote:
Push moves a figure 3 spaces. I really don't see how Diala would not be able to throw a figure through the door.

Push rules say to move the figure the specified number of spaces. Movement rules says that the figure cannot move through walls, doors, or through blocking or impassible terrain edges, nor into blocking or impassible terrain spaces.

The mission rules do not allow Imperial figures to move through doors. The figure does not change into a rebel figure just because it is being pushed.

Edit: Also note that Move X Spaces is not using Counting Spaces.
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Joe
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In the mission, the door doesn't not block a rebel figure's LOS, movement...

I interpret the rules such that since Diala is controlling the pushed figure, the door wouldn't block the figure that is moving. You disagree. Cool

Diala would not be able to push anyone through the door from your interpretation though as rules for the door are for "her," not for rebels.
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Ty
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Not sure I want to get into this, but I'll throw in my 2 cents.

The idea behind a specific team being able to move through closed doors is because that team controls the doors. Either by key, or code or they have someone in a control room somewhere manipulating the doors. Using that "logic", it seems to be in line that a character pushing another character could move them through a door that should otherwise be closed to them. If Diala can use the force to push someone, could she not also use the force to open the door for them and then close it afterwards? If Gaarkhan is pushing someone around, could he not open the door and push that character through the threshold and then slam the door shut?

Of course this is all conjecture.

I'm not seeing clear cut rules on either side of this, and it probably needs an official ruling of sorts. But the above certainly feels more thematic than the alternative.
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