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Bios: Genesis» Forums » Rules

Subject: Atrophy, Parasites, Diseased Cubes, and Immunology. rss

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There's a shape called "The Golden Rectangle". Have you heard of it?
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Little Canada
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It refers to a rectangle that's approximately contstructed in the ratio of 9 to 16. The golden rectangle has several characteristics. Let's say I create a square within this shape. Then, this smaller rectangle that I just created will also be a
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golden rectangle. I make another square within that and the leftover is another golden rectangle. And I make a few more, and when I connect all the central points of these shapes it creates a spiral that continues forever. This is the "Golden Spin".
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Edit: This is now more or less clarified in the living rules under the atrophy entry in the glossary.

I've posted this on the living rules, but I'd like some opinions on how you would/are playing this while I wait. Important questions are in bold.

Here's what the rules have to say about Atrophy:
Quote:
Loss of a Chromosome (either cube or Biont) from an Organism, caused by some events or Error Catastrophe. Mutation cubes must be lost first, then other cubes (Chromosomes, Diseased cubes, and Organs), then Bionts (Chromosomes, Foreign Genes, or Endosymbionts), and finally Trophic Bionts. ... Mutations cubes with a “+” (on promoted Mutations) must be lost before other Mutation cubes, and this demotes the Mutation.

Most of my confusion stems from the "diseased cubes" part. Can an organism atrophy the diseased cubes stolen by a parasite? To put it more clearly, here's how I think the "atrophy order" is supposed to be for each type of organism, with the unclear ones marked with a question mark:

Quote:
Bacterial microorganism:
Healthy Mutation Cubes -> Diseased Mutation Cubes on attached parasite(?) OR Chromosome Cubes (not Bionts) on placard -> Bionts on placard

Parasite microorganism:

Healthy Mutation Cubes -> Diseased Mutation Cubes on attached hyper-parasite(?) OR Disease Cubes on it's own card -> Bionts on it's own card.

Macroorganism:
Healthy Organs -> Diseased Organs(?) -> Endosymbiont Bionts -> Trophic Biont

For microorganisms, I put an "or" there because you may wish to kill off placard chromosomes in order to preserve the mutation's special abilities. I'm not sure if that's allowed though.

Next, does the immunology ability allow you to discard the non-'+' cube on a promoted mutation before discarding the '+' cube? If so, I assume nothing special happens and the mutation is just discarded entirely if it ever then loses it's '+' cube.

Finally, no matter what the answers to the previous questions are there are some scenarios where an organism may be forced to atrophy the non-'+' cube from a promoted mutation before discarding the '+' cube. Is the organism allowed to atrophy the non-'+' cube in that case or is it 'skipped over'?

For example, a parasite might steal the cube from an unpromoted mutation and that mutation might then be promoted. If the parasite suffers an atrophy, can it discard the cube or is it forced to atrophy it's own biont and go extinct?

Another example would be if a parasite steals the '+' cube from a promoted mutation, it's Host may be forced to atrophy the non-'+' because presumably he has to atrophy healthy cubes before diseased cubes (if he's even allowed to atrophy diseased cubes).
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Dom B.
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Here are some answers according to my understanding of the living rules:

golden_cow2 wrote:
Can an organism atrophy the diseased cubes stolen by a parasite?
no

golden_cow2 wrote:
Next, does the immunology ability allow you to discard the non-'+' cube on a promoted mutation before discarding the '+' cube? If so, I assume nothing special happens and the mutation is just discarded entirely if it ever then loses it's '+' cube.

I believe Immunology allows you to discard the non-'+' cube first but I also believe that you must demote the promoted mutation doing so ("A Mutation is in lockstep with its Mutation cubes".)

golden_cow2 wrote:
For example, a parasite might steal the cube from an unpromoted mutation and that mutation might then be promoted. If the parasite suffers an atrophy, can it discard the cube or is it forced to atrophy it's own biont and go extinct?

diseased cubes are atrophied before Bionts, so it must discard the cube

golden_cow2 wrote:
Another example would be if a parasite steals the '+' cube from a promoted mutation, it's Host may be forced to atrophy the non-'+' because presumably he has to atrophy healthy cubes before diseased cubes (if he's even allowed to atrophy diseased cubes).

the remaining cube on the mutation card would be discarded and the mutation demoted
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Jakub Ukrop
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Dom22 wrote:
golden_cow2 wrote:
Can an organism atrophy the diseased cubes stolen by a parasite?
no


This is what I think too.

What bothers me is this example in E4

Quote:
Player Red has a Bacterium with one promoted blue-red Mutation “hox genes”. This Mutation is missing its red “+” cube, stolen by an attached viroid Parasite. Player Green sends his cyanobacteria to supplant the viroid. This is successful, because the cyanobacteria takes two Diseased cubes from the Mutation, one blue and one red. The viroid is dissolved, and Player Blue gets compensation for the lost blue Biont (which can be reassigned when Player Blue takes his turn). Tragically, the new cyanobacteria Parasite is a polluter, and its Host has no oxygen shield. Therefore, it loses its Mutation, and both of the Parasite’s Diseased cubes are lost as well.


1. When green parasite supplants the viroid, the situation looks like this:
Parasite(red)[blue][red]
Host(red), red&blue mutation with no cubes
(there is a picture in the rules to confirm there are no cubes in the bacterium whatsoever)

2. When green makes the O2 attack (strength 1), the host "loses its Mutation, and both of the Parasite’s Diseased cubes are lost"

Why? Shouldn't the host loose it's only biont, making both organisms extinct? Can host atrophy a stolen cube then? But why two? Or is the card somehow atrophied? Am I missing something?
 
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Dom B.
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dill wrote:
What bothers me is this example in E4

2. When green makes the O2 attack (strength 1), the host "loses its Mutation, and both of the Parasite’s Diseased cubes are lost"

Why? Shouldn't the host loose it's only biont, making both organisms extinct? Can host atrophy a stolen cube then? But why two? Or is the card somehow atrophied? Am I missing something?

It was a mistake and Phil just corrected it; see here
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