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Epic Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Epic Tournament Rules rss

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Ian Taylor
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http://www.epiccardgame.com/epic-tournament-rules-and-you/

Enjoy!

Ian Taylor
Director of Organized Play
White Wizard Games
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Josiah Fiscus
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4.5.2 If a player controls a triggered effect, and the player either passes initiative, or plays a card or power without acknowledging that trigger, the player is assumed to have forgotten the triggered effect. Since most triggered effects are beneficial, the effect will not be applied unless their opponent wishes it to be applied. If the opponent decides they would like the trigger to resolve, it resolves immediately.
4.5.2a Players are under no obligation to remind their opponents about missed triggers. However, if a judge determines that a player is deliberately missing triggers to gain advantage, this may be construed as Cheating (5.2.1)


So if you forget to bring back your Soul Hunter, for example, it is okay as long as you haven't yet played a card, power, or passed initiative. In other words, if you drew your start of turn card first, you can say "oops, also my Soul Hunter comes back" without penalty. Notably, as I read it, if you had a Muse in play and drew TWO cards for start of turn, this would be "using a power" and you would not be able to bring your Soul Hunter back. Is that right?
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Josiah Fiscus
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6.3 For the first game of the match, players determine who will go first. This will be done
randomly, using a method agreeable to both players. Note that players are determining which
player goes first, not determining which player chooses who goes first. Each player presents a
shuffled deck to their opponent, who may opt to shuffle or cut the deck if they wish.


This is notable also. We've been rolling to CHOOSE. Oops!
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Josiah Fiscus
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-Illegally Accessing Hidden Information​ - A player performs an action and by this accesses
information that should be hidden. If the fix is easy, the judge should issue a warning. If the fix
is disruptive and/or impossible, this should be a Major Infraction and a game loss is appropriate.
Example: A player picks up the top card of his deck and sees it. The player thought his
opponent passed the turn. The judge determines that the deck can be randomized (excluding
the non-random portion ie Banished cards), and does so. This should be a Minor Infraction.
Example: A player sees that his opponent is playing certain constructed cards, and deduces
that they are playing a specific deck type. The player then looks at a decklist posted online to
determine what is likely in their opponent’s deck. This is a Major Infraction, since it cannot be
undone.


I think there is an argument to be made for putting banished cards parallel at the bottom of the pile or even keeping a separate "banished deck" to avoid infractions in cases like this. Would that be a legal thing to do?
 
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Nathan Davis
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happyjosiah wrote:
-Illegally Accessing Hidden Information​ - A player performs an action and by this accesses
information that should be hidden. If the fix is easy, the judge should issue a warning. If the fix
is disruptive and/or impossible, this should be a Major Infraction and a game loss is appropriate.
Example: A player picks up the top card of his deck and sees it. The player thought his
opponent passed the turn. The judge determines that the deck can be randomized (excluding
the non-random portion ie Banished cards), and does so. This should be a Minor Infraction.
Example: A player sees that his opponent is playing certain constructed cards, and deduces
that they are playing a specific deck type. The player then looks at a decklist posted online to
determine what is likely in their opponent’s deck. This is a Major Infraction, since it cannot be
undone.


I think there is an argument to be made for putting banished cards parallel at the bottom of the pile or even keeping a separate "banished deck" to avoid infractions in cases like this. Would that be a legal thing to do?


It wouldn't be legal to do that. We are currently discussing allowing players to put a token card on the bottom of their deck when the game begins, to prevent these sorts of issues.

- Nathan
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Brian Rayburn
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Example: A player sees that his opponent is playing certain constructed cards, and deduces that they are playing a specific deck type. The player then looks at a decklist posted online to determine what is likely in their opponent’s deck. This is a Major Infraction, since it cannot be undone.

This makes no sense. If I see someone playing certain cards, you can put money on me looking up those deck types. By this logic if I spectate a game that includes a future opponent, I'm cheating. What about glancing at the game next to you while playing? Is that cheating? Looking up deck lists online won't necessarily tell you what exact cards are in a deck.
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Ian Taylor
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scarecrowking wrote:
Example: A player sees that his opponent is playing certain constructed cards, and deduces that they are playing a specific deck type. The player then looks at a decklist posted online to determine what is likely in their opponent’s deck. This is a Major Infraction, since it cannot be undone.

This makes no sense. If I see someone playing certain cards, you can put money on me looking up those deck types. By this logic if I spectate a game that includes a future opponent, I'm cheating. What about glancing at the game next to you while playing? Is that cheating? Looking up deck lists online won't necessarily tell you what exact cards are in a deck.


The infraction specifies "their opponent". If you have an opponent, you're in a match. If you look at notes online, they are from outside this match. You can do whatever research you like on future opponents, but once you know who you're playing, you cannot access anything from outside the match.

Ian Taylor
Director of Organized Play
White Wizard Games
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Ian Taylor
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happyjosiah wrote:
6.3 For the first game of the match, players determine who will go first. This will be done
randomly, using a method agreeable to both players. Note that players are determining which
player goes first, not determining which player chooses who goes first. Each player presents a
shuffled deck to their opponent, who may opt to shuffle or cut the deck if they wish.


This is notable also. We've been rolling to CHOOSE. Oops!


It's my Whoops I'm afraid. We changed this rule months ago, but an older version sneaked in. Fixing this now.

To clarify: You roll to choose.

Ian Taylor
Director of Organized Play
White Wizard Games
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Quote:
4.4 Players that require a ruling should solicit one from a judge or tournament official. Players should not attempt to make their own rulings, or solicit rulings from (including but not limited to) spectators, friends, opponents, pets, ghosts, themselves from the future, their congressman, or a box of Wheat Thins. That’s what judges are for.


Nice of you to sneak a joke in, Ian.

On a (slightly) more serious note, I feel like the rules should allow a player to get a ruling from an opponent on an issue, the player should assume that the ruling is biased in the opponents favor and should definitely appeal to a judge if he/she does not like the ruling, but I don't think that it should be forbidden. There are a ton of things that happen in a game that the players just agree to play some way since it is fair, reasonable, and calling a judge over would just be a waste of time. For example, what is a reasonable token? How to handle a crooked dice at the start of the game?
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Brian Rayburn
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IanWWG wrote:
scarecrowking wrote:
Example: A player sees that his opponent is playing certain constructed cards, and deduces that they are playing a specific deck type. The player then looks at a decklist posted online to determine what is likely in their opponent’s deck. This is a Major Infraction, since it cannot be undone.

This makes no sense. If I see someone playing certain cards, you can put money on me looking up those deck types. By this logic if I spectate a game that includes a future opponent, I'm cheating. What about glancing at the game next to you while playing? Is that cheating? Looking up deck lists online won't necessarily tell you what exact cards are in a deck.


The infraction specifies "their opponent". If you have an opponent, you're in a match. If you look at notes online, they are from outside this match. You can do whatever research you like on future opponents, but once you know who you're playing, you cannot access anything from outside the match.

Ian Taylor
Director of Organized Play
White Wizard Games


OK, that makes sense. I'm struggling with a massive man-cold, so me no think good right now. Also, thanks for the clarification on the die roll.
 
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Ian Taylor
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ThinkingThatsAll wrote:
Quote:
4.4 Players that require a ruling should solicit one from a judge or tournament official. Players should not attempt to make their own rulings, or solicit rulings from (including but not limited to) spectators, friends, opponents, pets, ghosts, themselves from the future, their congressman, or a box of Wheat Thins. That’s what judges are for.


Nice of you to sneak a joke in, Ian.

On a (slightly) more serious note, I feel like the rules should allow a player to get a ruling from an opponent on an issue, the player should assume that the ruling is biased in the opponents favor and should definitely appeal to a judge if he/she does not like the ruling, but I don't think that it should be forbidden. There are a ton of things that happen in a game that the players just agree to play some way since it is fair, reasonable, and calling a judge over would just be a waste of time. For example, what is a reasonable token? How to handle a crooked dice at the start of the game?


This is why I use the word "should". It's not illegal to solicit a ruling from anyone or anything listed in 4.4, it's just a friendly word of advice. If a player gets a ruling from their opponent, and the ruling is wrong, and they lose the match because of it, I will perform the "I told you so" dance.

If the players handle something amicably, I'm good.

Ian Taylor
Director of Organized Play
White Wizard Games
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Josiah Fiscus
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happyjosiah wrote:
4.5.2 If a player controls a triggered effect, and the player either passes initiative, or plays a card or power without acknowledging that trigger, the player is assumed to have forgotten the triggered effect. Since most triggered effects are beneficial, the effect will not be applied unless their opponent wishes it to be applied. If the opponent decides they would like the trigger to resolve, it resolves immediately.
4.5.2a Players are under no obligation to remind their opponents about missed triggers. However, if a judge determines that a player is deliberately missing triggers to gain advantage, this may be construed as Cheating (5.2.1)


So if you forget to bring back your Soul Hunter, for example, it is okay as long as you haven't yet played a card, power, or passed initiative. In other words, if you drew your start of turn card first, you can say "oops, also my Soul Hunter comes back" without penalty. Notably, as I read it, if you had a Muse in play and drew TWO cards for start of turn, this would be "using a power" and you would not be able to bring your Soul Hunter back. Is that right?


Can I get confirmation on how this works?
 
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Ian Taylor
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happyjosiah wrote:
happyjosiah wrote:
4.5.2 If a player controls a triggered effect, and the player either passes initiative, or plays a card or power without acknowledging that trigger, the player is assumed to have forgotten the triggered effect. Since most triggered effects are beneficial, the effect will not be applied unless their opponent wishes it to be applied. If the opponent decides they would like the trigger to resolve, it resolves immediately.
4.5.2a Players are under no obligation to remind their opponents about missed triggers. However, if a judge determines that a player is deliberately missing triggers to gain advantage, this may be construed as Cheating (5.2.1)


So if you forget to bring back your Soul Hunter, for example, it is okay as long as you haven't yet played a card, power, or passed initiative. In other words, if you drew your start of turn card first, you can say "oops, also my Soul Hunter comes back" without penalty. Notably, as I read it, if you had a Muse in play and drew TWO cards for start of turn, this would be "using a power" and you would not be able to bring your Soul Hunter back. Is that right?


Can I get confirmation on how this works?


Powers are abilities that a player chooses to use at a specific time.

Another popular game calls them "Activated abilities"

Since Muse is a triggered ability, and Soul Hunter is a triggered ability, you could draw for turn, draw for Muse, then bring Soul Hunter back. Once you go past the point where bringing Soul Hunter back is a legal action, you missed it (unless your opponent really wants it in play).

In more plain English: If you move the game past the point where it's obvious that you missed the trigger, you effectively lose the trigger.

Ian Taylor
Director of Organized Play
White Wizard Games

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Derek Arnold
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IanWWG wrote:
happyjosiah wrote:
happyjosiah wrote:
4.5.2 If a player controls a triggered effect, and the player either passes initiative, or plays a card or power without acknowledging that trigger, the player is assumed to have forgotten the triggered effect. Since most triggered effects are beneficial, the effect will not be applied unless their opponent wishes it to be applied. If the opponent decides they would like the trigger to resolve, it resolves immediately.
4.5.2a Players are under no obligation to remind their opponents about missed triggers. However, if a judge determines that a player is deliberately missing triggers to gain advantage, this may be construed as Cheating (5.2.1)


So if you forget to bring back your Soul Hunter, for example, it is okay as long as you haven't yet played a card, power, or passed initiative. In other words, if you drew your start of turn card first, you can say "oops, also my Soul Hunter comes back" without penalty. Notably, as I read it, if you had a Muse in play and drew TWO cards for start of turn, this would be "using a power" and you would not be able to bring your Soul Hunter back. Is that right?


Can I get confirmation on how this works?


Powers are abilities that a player chooses to use at a specific time.

Another popular game calls them "Activated abilities"

Since Muse is a triggered ability, and Soul Hunter is a triggered ability, you could draw for turn, draw for Muse, then bring Soul Hunter back. Once you go past the point where bringing Soul Hunter back is a legal action, you missed it (unless your opponent really wants it in play).

In more plain English: If you move the game past the point where it's obvious that you missed the trigger, you effectively lose the trigger.

Ian Taylor
Director of Organized Play
White Wizard Games



Is it irrelevant that Soul Hunter is a mandatory trigger? And am I not obligated to point this out as an opponent?
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Ian Taylor
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EpicAgenda wrote:
IanWWG wrote:
happyjosiah wrote:
happyjosiah wrote:
4.5.2 If a player controls a triggered effect, and the player either passes initiative, or plays a card or power without acknowledging that trigger, the player is assumed to have forgotten the triggered effect. Since most triggered effects are beneficial, the effect will not be applied unless their opponent wishes it to be applied. If the opponent decides they would like the trigger to resolve, it resolves immediately.
4.5.2a Players are under no obligation to remind their opponents about missed triggers. However, if a judge determines that a player is deliberately missing triggers to gain advantage, this may be construed as Cheating (5.2.1)


So if you forget to bring back your Soul Hunter, for example, it is okay as long as you haven't yet played a card, power, or passed initiative. In other words, if you drew your start of turn card first, you can say "oops, also my Soul Hunter comes back" without penalty. Notably, as I read it, if you had a Muse in play and drew TWO cards for start of turn, this would be "using a power" and you would not be able to bring your Soul Hunter back. Is that right?


Can I get confirmation on how this works?


Powers are abilities that a player chooses to use at a specific time.

Another popular game calls them "Activated abilities"

Since Muse is a triggered ability, and Soul Hunter is a triggered ability, you could draw for turn, draw for Muse, then bring Soul Hunter back. Once you go past the point where bringing Soul Hunter back is a legal action, you missed it (unless your opponent really wants it in play).

In more plain English: If you move the game past the point where it's obvious that you missed the trigger, you effectively lose the trigger.

Ian Taylor
Director of Organized Play
White Wizard Games



Is it irrelevant that Soul Hunter is a mandatory trigger? And am I not obligated to point this out as an opponent?


No, but you can if you don't want them to miss it.

Ian Taylor
Director of Organized Play
White Wizard Games
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