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Perdition's Mouth: Abyssal Rift» Forums » Rules

Subject: Playing wound cards rss

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Sebastian Beck
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Hey all.

When aiding you have to reach a value of 0 to be able to play a wound card.

I used this rule even when playing wound cards on myself. So I am not able to play a -4 on me when having only 3 Action points.

Is this correct?

 
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Jalmari Ruokojärvi
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Actually, the end result for aid must be more than zero, but yes, I'd say that you've got the right idea. And I reckon that the world shouldn't explode either if possibly applied response cards drop the end result to 0 or lower. So for buffing oneself, I'd say that this rule should only apply before the random variables (response cards) are added to the mix.
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Tristan Brunet
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I'm sorry but this response feels a bit too blurry for my tastes ! The rules clearly state that you can't play wound cards when aiding another player if it results in a negative value. But nothing in the rulebook seems to prevent you from playing a bunch of wound cards on yourself for a single attack, in order to dump them from your hand. Yet here it seems you're saying the opposite. Did I miss something ?

Since I think it shouldn't be hard to have a clearcut line here, I'd like to know what is the actual rule in the end ? You never can play a wound card if it drops a value under 0, before applying the response card ? Is it official ? I'm sorry, but things like "you got the right idea" or "the world shouldn't explode if..." make me anxious in a rules forum (since we're not discussing house rules here)...
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Robin Vermeersch
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Since all values on yourself (excluding hit points) can go in the negative (look at attack values) I do believe you can negative yourself but not another player, since you're working together and it's not a traitor game
 
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Timo Multamäki
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Sorcerious wrote:
Since all values on yourself (excluding hit points) can go in the negative (look at attack values) I do believe you can negative yourself but not another player, since you're working together and it's not a traitor game


Indeed. You can have Defense of -5 if you wish. You just can't "aid" negatively for the reasons listed above.
 
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Tristan Brunet
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Ok, thanks, guys ! That's clearer now !

But then, does that mean that you can get negative action points ? Or whatever you play, the minimum is set at 3 ? Does that minimum only has to do with fatigue ?
 
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Timo Multamäki
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Paptimus wrote:

Ok, thanks, guys ! That's clearer now !

But then, does that mean that you can get negative action points ? Or whatever you play, the minimum is set at 3 ? Does that minimum only has to do with fatigue ?


Minimum AP is always 3. Regardless of any other modifiers. So even if you have tons of fatigue, you always get 3 AP.
 
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Tristan Brunet
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Ok, it was clear for fatigue, but that also means I can dump all move wound cards and still get 3 AP. Thanks for the clarification !
 
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Timo Multamäki
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Ah, keep in mind the difference between AP and movement.

So: If you start your turn, you must have 3 AP.
Then you use some of those to move on the wheel. You must move on the wheel. THEN you will have what ever is left to move on the board. And if you have say 1 AP to move on the board and you play -2 movement wound, then you do not move on the board. But yes, it is allowed to play negative movement to yourself.


So let me correct myself. As the rulebook says (p. 18):
Occasionally it could be sensible to play wounds with movement symbol to decrease your effective movement. This is allowed as long as your total movement is at least zero!

And it is essential to keep in mind that due to wounds you can not decrease your abilities below zero. So to use Attack wound card, you have to still have total attack value of zero. This is intentional, as basically using wounds would have virtually no effect if you could just dump any ability to as much towards negative as you can.

Yes, this was CHANGED from earlier ruleversions (a year ago or so) as some brighter-than-me fans convinced me that this is a loophole that we must fill.

...and STILL the part that you get minimum of 3 AP applies ONLY at the beginning of the given Heros turn (eg. before the peg is moved at the wheel) - which often leads to very little movement on the board unless you play cards.
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Tristan Brunet
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Wow... That's an important caveat. That makes things much clearer, but I think it should figure on the FAQ.

Thanks for your time and answers, Timo !
 
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Dan
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Please note the updated post from Timo. I'm not sure if subscribers would be notified by the update alone.
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Tristan Brunet
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No, they wouldn't...

So... The final word is: wound cannot decrease any value under 0 ? Is that right ?

But then, can you still play negative move cards to reduce your APs to zero (still getting your minimum 3 APs to move your peg on the rondel) even if you don't take a move action (or an action that uses AP), dumping your wound card without real consequence ?
 
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David Hladky
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Paptimus wrote:
No, they wouldn't...
So... The final word is: wound cannot decrease any value under 0 ? Is that right ?

This is not correct wording. This would mean you can play -10 wounds and you still would have 0. The proper wording is you are not allowed to decrease any value under 0. I understand it this way, but Timo has both variants in his response.

Paptimus wrote:

But then, can you still play negative move cards to reduce your APs to zero (still getting your minimum 3 APs to move your peg on the rondel) even if you don't take a move action (or an action that uses AP), dumping your wound card without real consequence ?


I think it is the same problem as the previous one, but the minimal value is 3 and not 0. But it is more complicated here, because the poison really stops reducing AP on 3 even if you receive more tokens.
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Tristan Brunet
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David,

You're completely right about the wording. I think this part of the ruling, at least, is clear. Still, it should be added to the FAQ, and clearly stated as a rule in the rulebook (which only speaks about assists and move points, leading you to think the rule is different in other situations - like it was before !).

For the second part, I still think there could be a clearer rule about how move wound cards can affect your AP value during different parts of your turn (at the start of your turn - when moving your peg, and take poison markers into account, and then during your action, whether this action uses possibly remaining APs or not). I think I understand the general intent (dumping wound cards has to feel hard, you can't dump them for free for gamey reasons), but there still seem to be room for confusion / timing problems within the loose frame of a character turn.

I'd say my question regarding APs and move wound cards could be stated this way : when exactly can you play move wound cards to decrease your APs ? Is it just forbidden ? Can you do it only until 3 ? Is it after or before applying poison ? Or can you use wounds to reduce APs to 0, though you still get to use 3 AP for moving your peg on the rondel only (What Timo is refering as "at the start of your turn only", which is a notion that doesn't appear in the rules per se) ? Which could then lead to tactical dumping of such wound cards, (using this 3 point window to reduce a value without real consequence in the game), especially if you end up choosing an action which doesn't use remaining APs (like Rest or Aimed shot/Bash...).

Sorry for being insistant, I want things to be as clear as possible in my head before playing the game... And I'm only trying to make the rules of the game as clear as possible !! I'm really excited to play it !
 
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Robin Vermeersch
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Its getting more and more confusing...

So you cannot decrease any value under 0, even thouh timo stated you could have -5 defense if you wanted.

But its allowed to have 6 ap from your hero, play a wound to reduce it by 4, still have 3 ap lef, move two spaces on the rondel, 1 on the board, or 3 on the rondel and none on the board fe. Or you could have 3 ap left after poison, reduceren it by 2, and still have 3 ap left.

To sum it up..
 
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David desJardins
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I think people are being a little bit silly in their possible "interpretations here". The rule is:

You always gain at least 3 AP on your turn, even if an effect reduces your AP below that.

Number cards (or wounds) played to increase or decrease your AP happen after you gain AP. So if you get 6 AP and then you play a -4 Wound then you only have 2 AP to move on the Stone of Destiny. You aren't allowed to play Wounds to reduce your AP to 0 (or less) because then you wouldn't be able to make the required move on the Stone of Destiny. But you can play the -4 Wound if you only need/want to move 2 spaces (and then won't have any leftover AP for your action).
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Tristan Brunet
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DaviddesJ wrote:
I think people are being a little bit silly in their possible "interpretations here". The rule is:

You always gain at least 3 AP on your turn, even if an effect reduces your AP below that.

Number cards (or wounds) played to increase or decrease your AP happen after you gain AP. So if you get 6 AP and then you play a -4 Wound then you only have 2 AP to move on the Stone of Destiny. You aren't allowed to play Wounds to reduce your AP to 0 (or less) because then you wouldn't be able to make the required move on the Stone of Destiny. But you can play the -4 Wound if you only need/want to move 2 spaces (and then won't have any leftover AP for your action).


Ok, David, thanks for the level-headed answer.

So, if you're right, it means that :
-the minimum 3 AP at the start of the turn basically applies only to fatigue.
-you can then play wound cards to decrease your APs under this threshold.

That makes perfect sense. EXCEPT that means AP can't be decreased under 1, unlike other stats, since you have to move at least one spoke on the rondel. Which is an exception to the aforementioned (unstated per se in the rulebook) rule, and should be clearly stated somewhere. Or am I still completely confused ?
Sorry, I'm being a bit obtuse on purpose, in order to get things clearly stated and/or clear in my head.
 
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David desJardins
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Paptimus wrote:
EXCEPT that means AP can't be decreased under 1, unlike other stats, since you have to move at least one spoke on the rondel.


Yes, this is implicit, and it could be made explicit.
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Tristan Brunet
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Thanks, I think it's clear for me now.

Sorry if my questions brought confusion to the point.

Once again, I think this thread brought some important food for the FAQ (at least).

Especially for the "no stat decrease under 0" (which Timo himself got wrong in an earlier post, with the -5 defense, due to the rule changing during the playtest process) and the "3 APs regardless to fatigue, then you can apply wound cards to a minimum of 1" two-step process.

A lot of those are implied in the rules but could be made clearer.

Can't wait to play the game !
 
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