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Arkham Horror: The Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Deduction card #39 core set rss

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David Folksman
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Hi all.

Would someone be able to chime in on how you trigger this card? It says "if this test is successful". Does it mean I play the card with an investigate action? If so can I play other cards in for their icons with the test? Thanks.
 
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This card boosts your investigate value by one when played during an investigate action due to the icon.

If your investigate skill check then succeeds, then the card effect would trigger.

You can pitch as many cards as you like with matching icons to the test you are about to undertake. Skill cards are only used for this purpose, and they come with additional effects.

Asset and event cards can be used for their icons during a test but just add their icon value to the particular test.
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Mathias Heilmann
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DaveyF wrote:
Hi all.

Would someone be able to chime in on how you trigger this card? It says "if this test is successful". Does it mean I play the card with an investigate action? If so can I play other cards in for their icons with the test? Thanks.
Deduction is a skill card. You can only commit them to skill checks. If the skill you committed "Deduction" to is successful, the card text triggers. Other cards like this are e. g. "Overpower" or "Manual Dexterity" from the neutral cards.
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Scott Dockery
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Skill cards can be committed to tests just like other player cards. If you or someone else on your location performs an Investigate action, you commit the Deduction card to the test, apply its icon bonus, and then apply its text to the outcome of the test.
 
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David Folksman
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Thanks all

 
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Stephan Beal
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To add a second part to this question: when Player A is Investigating, and Player B contributes this Skill card (as per ST.2, RR pg 26), which Investigator gets the additional clue token?

The Deduction card says:

Quote:
If this skill test is successful while investigating a location, discover 1 additional clue at that location.


i interpret that as Player A (the one performing Investigation) getting the 1 additional clue, as opposed to Player B (who contributed the card).
 
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mplain
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Quote:
Deduction

- The word 'Additional' means 'in addition to other clues you discover', i.e. it modifies the number of clues that you would find, it does not add an extra effect on top of any other effects (e.g. does not stack with Burglary).

As confirmed by Matt Newman, see the Unofficial FAQ.
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Stephan Beal
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mplain wrote:
Quote:
Deduction

- The word 'Additional' means 'in addition to other clues you discover', i.e. it modifies the number of clues that you would find, it does not add an extra effect on top of any other effects (e.g. does not stack with Burglary).

As confirmed by Matt Newman, see the Unofficial FAQ.


That does not seem to clarify which of the characters (A or B) gets the additional clue.

EDIT: the relevant(?) quote from that page:

Quote:
11) When you commit a skill card to another player's test, you resolve the effects of your skill card (e.g. draw a card for Guts), unless that effect modifies the outcome of the skill test (e.g. Vicious Blow, Deduction).


i can interpret that as:

a) "For Deduction and Vicious Blow, the being-assisted Investigator (as opposed to 'you') resolves the effect."

Or i can interpret it as...

b) "For Deduction and Vicious Blow, the effect on the card is not resolved because it would modify the outcome of the skill test."

 
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mplain
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Fair enough. I edited it, hopefully it's more clear now:
Quote:
11) When you commit a skill card to another player's test, any special effect provided by your skill card (e.g. "Draw 1 card" for Guts) applies to you, unless that effect modifies the outcome of the skill test (e.g. Vicious Blow, Deduction).
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Stephan Beal
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mplain wrote:
Fair enough. I edited it, hopefully it's more clear now:
Quote:
11) When you commit a skill card to another player's test, any special effect provided by your skill card (e.g. "Draw 1 card" for Guts) applies to you, unless that effect modifies the outcome of the skill test (e.g. Vicious Blow, Deduction).


The part "unless that effect modifies the outcome of the test" is still leaving me hanging because it's not clear to me whether the providing of an "additional clue" counts as "modifies the outcome". My intuition is, "yes, that's a different/modified outcome," but i suspect that "modified outcome" is intended only to apply on the point value of the skill test, and not side-effects.

As written above, i'm assuming that "modified outcome" applies only to the skill check point value, and not side-effects of success or failure. Therefore i am interpreting Deduction, in the case described above, as "'you' (the assisting player) gets the additional clue".

Is that correct?
 
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Stephan Beal
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mplain wrote:
Fair enough. I edited it, hopefully it's more clear now:
Quote:
11) When you commit a skill card to another player's test, any special effect provided by your skill card (e.g. "Draw 1 card" for Guts) applies to you, unless that effect modifies the outcome of the skill test (e.g. Vicious Blow, Deduction).


(i just lost 5 minutes of editing a response when BGG refused to save it because a thread between this one and that one had been deleted. Aarrgg.)

So, to summarize: my current confusion lies in the reason that Vicious Blow and Deduction are considered to "modify the outcome". Is it:

A) because they provide a skill check modifier?

or

B) because they change [on success] arbitrary game state?

i.e. does "the outcome" of a skill check encompass side-effects applied via such cards, or is it limited to the skill check value?


In addition, "unless that effect modifies the outcome of the skill test" has at least two distinct interpretations for me in the above quote:

A) "if that effect modifies the outcome, any special effect provided by that card applies to not-you" (where "not-you" is the Assisted player (not the Assisting player, as i previously suggested))

B) "if that effect modifies the outcome, any special effect does not apply at all."

Since (B) would seem to make Deduction half useless, i am assuming that (A) is correct.
 
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mplain
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Vicious Blow says "That attack deals +1 damage", which modifies the amount of damage the attack does (it does not create another instance of the "deal damage" game event).

Deduction says "Discover 1 additional clue", which modifies the number of clues the investigating player discovers (it does not create another instance of the "discover a clue" game event).

Fearless says "Heal 1 damage", which is special effect that does not modify the base effect but applies on top of it. This effect applies to the player that committed the skill card, not the player that performed the skill test.

Guts, Perception, Overpower, and Manual Dexterity say "Draw 1 card", which is special effect that does not modify the base effect but applies on top of it. This effect applies to the player that committed the skill card, not the player that performed the skill test.

Double or Nothing says "Resolve the effects twice", i.e. resolve the effects of the successful test a second time, in exactly the same manner as they were resolved the first time.
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Scott Hill
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sgbeal wrote:
mplain wrote:
Fair enough. I edited it, hopefully it's more clear now:
Quote:
11) When you commit a skill card to another player's test, any special effect provided by your skill card (e.g. "Draw 1 card" for Guts) applies to you, unless that effect modifies the outcome of the skill test (e.g. Vicious Blow, Deduction).


(i just lost 5 minutes of editing a response when BGG refused to save it because a thread between this one and that one had been deleted. Aarrgg.)

So, to summarize: my current confusion lies in the reason that Vicious Blow and Deduction are considered to "modify the outcome". Is it:

A) because they provide a skill check modifier?

or

B) because they change [on success] arbitrary game state?

i.e. does "the outcome" of a skill check encompass side-effects applied via such cards, or is it limited to the skill check value?

The outcome is what happens after the skill check has either failed or succeeded.

sgbeal wrote:
In addition, "unless that effect modifies the outcome of the skill test" has at least two distinct interpretations for me in the above quote:

A) "if that effect modifies the outcome, any special effect provided by that card applies to not-you" (where "not-you" is the Assisted player (not the Assisting player, as i previously suggested))

B) "if that effect modifies the outcome, any special effect does not apply at all."

Since (B) would seem to make Deduction half useless, i am assuming that (A) is correct.


When you commit a skill card to another player's test, any special effect provided by your skill card (e.g. "Draw 1 card" for Guts) applies to you, unless that effect modifies the outcome of the skill test (e.g. Vicious Blow, Deduction), in which case the effect applies to the investigator performing the skill test.

Does that help clarify it?
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Donnie L
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If you use deduction on a location with 2 clues and succeed, do you take 2 clues off the location or do you take 1 clue off the location and 1 clue from the pool?
 
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Jan Probst
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Outtkast wrote:
If you use deduction on a location with 2 clues and succeed, do you take 2 clues off the location or do you take 1 clue off the location and 1 clue from the pool?

Deduction "discovers" the Clue, so it comes off the location.

Compare that one Scenario 2 location text (Northside?) for how getting a clue from the pool looks.
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Donnie L
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Thanks. So if there's only 1 clue left on the location, you don't get a 2nd clue?
 
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Jan Probst
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Yeah, better save the Deduction for elsewhere then.
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Wayne McIlvaine
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Weltenreiter wrote:
Yeah, better save the Deduction for elsewhere then.


Is there any source, or related rule, that confirms this definitively? I agree with you completely, I'm just checking.

Thanks.
 
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Jan Probst
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Clue entry in the RRG giving the definition of "discover", I guess?

RRG pg 6 wrote:
A clue at a location can be discovered by successfully
investigating the location (see “Investigate Action” on page
13), or by a card ability. If an investigator discovers a
clue, he or she takes the clue from the location and places
it on his or her investigator card, under his or her control.
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mplain
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Yep. The rulebook explains the term 'discover' as 'take a clue from your location'.
 
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Wayne McIlvaine
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Weltenreiter wrote:
Clue entry in the RRG giving the definition of "discover", I guess?

RRG pg 6 wrote:
A clue at a location can be discovered by successfully
investigating the location (see “Investigate Action” on page
13), or by a card ability. If an investigator discovers a
clue, he or she takes the clue from the location and places
it on his or her investigator card, under his or her control.


Thanks!
 
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