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Combat Commander: Europe» Forums » Rules

Subject: What the Blazes! A Cold Front Corner Case rss

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An extremely entertaining scenario 5 split over the last 2 evenings, with the germans winning in the end comfortably in sudden death at 5VP (SD at 13 so not a normal sudden death, more like clock running out). The wife had pulled the secret objective which gave her VP for control points so it was closer than it had been, and she didnt heed the golden rule that a game is never over, so towards the end I think she'd given up a bit not realising that instead of trying to escape units off the board for double exit VPs,the german surrender at 5 was the weak point and she should have tried to mount a big melee assault on our well defended positions. Well, she'll have the chance for a rematch in a couple of days


Anyway, it was ironic that there was out first proper big blaze, given the winter conditions in "Cold Front", and its spread certainly caused problems for the russians, assuming we played the rules correctly, including one that we thought might be a corner case, but no doubt we missed a conclusive explanation

anyway

1) I assumed that if I routed her unit back into a blaze hex, the unit was eliminated.

2) I also ruled that exiting a hex due to a blaze spreading does not award opportunity fire because it did not involve the spending of MP within a move order

3) A blaze forcing a unit off the side of the board, I guess counts as elimination

and the corner case
4) there developed a position with several blaze hexes in one corner on her side of the board, and when a breeze event got it to spread there was a choice of which hex to fill with a spread blaze first, and the decision of which to pick first would decide if her unit was pushed off to one side or the other because blaze covered the hexes directly behind her units and across a few hexes wide there too.

Imagine hexes ABC on fire and DEF in front of those, she is in E
if I spread the C fire to F first, then B to E, she moves to D which is out in the open, or at least when I then spread A to D shes out in the open to the adjacent hex to D. I've already forgotten the details but she couldnt move forward for some reason, maybe overstacking reasons

Or do you imagine the hexes DEF all "going up in flames" at the same time such that a unit in E can choose after the fact to go to the hex adjacent to D or F (or forced to go one hex forward from E, even if that ends up forcing a melee or overstack?)

Now that I write it here later from memory it sounds less tricky, like she just pushes the unit forward, but for some reason I have it in my head that wasn't an option for some reason. So lets say what if she cant move ahead either due to some other blaze or impassable terrain



oh, and separate aside,
she was not happy with the idea that my machine guns were equally effective at the longer end of their range than much closer. I tried to argue that the ranges represent a shorter distance than their maximum range, more like an operational range, but she still thought it was unfair since shooting at 3 hexes (90 feet) should be easier than shooting at 12 hexes (360 feet) with a heavy machine gun. I wondered in a more general sense, is this something that features in other games, I know Memoir 44 had decreasing dice with range for infantry (but not tanks), but I was just interested really. I'm a card carrying TTJ member so its not a complaint.

I asked the missus why she struggles to take any confrontational moves when we've played euro games before, to the point where shes often apologetic for mild blocking, but has no bother getting stuck in and trying to kick my ass at Combat Commander.

"this is war" she says, deadpan.
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David desJardins
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BoJack Horseman wrote:
Or do you imagine the hexes DEF all "going up in flames" at the same time such that a unit in E can choose after the fact to go to the hex adjacent to D or F (or forced to go one hex forward from E, even if that ends up forcing a melee or overstack?)


Yes and no. First you put blaze markers into D, E, and F. Then the unit in E must be displaced to an adjacent hex. If there's no hex adjacent to E that is not in a blaze then it's eliminated. It can't "bounce" through D or F to another hex.
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Thanks!

So in our case, in a 2 hex wide example AB in the rear and DE in front, with her unit in D, she can only go adjacent to D (which is what we did) so theres no "choice" to put blaze in D, force her to E then bump her over to adjacent to E

It makes sense, probably if I'd imagined a blaze spread all across one edge of the map it would have helped me realise there couldnt be a multi hex blaze escape dilemma
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Confusion Under Fire
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BoJack Horseman wrote:



oh, and separate aside,
she was not happy with the idea that my machine guns were equally effective at the longer end of their range than much closer. I tried to argue that the ranges represent a shorter distance than their maximum range, more like an operational range, but she still thought it was unfair since shooting at 3 hexes (90 feet) should be easier than shooting at 12 hexes (360 feet) with a heavy machine gun. I wondered in a more general sense, is this something that features in other games, I know Memoir 44 had decreasing dice with range for infantry (but not tanks), but I was just interested really. I'm a card carrying TTJ member so its not a complaint.


A lot of tactical boardgames suffer from this and for me it is quite an important aspect of tactical gaming. You will find ranged fire more common in figure gaming than in the boards but some games do go some degree to resolve this issue. Conflict of Heroes for example, you can fire at twice the range for a reduced firepower and also gain a benefit for firing at 1 hex range. This is in essence a 3 bands of ranged fire. Although not addressing your wifes comment, CC handles this with Leader bonuses which IMO handles it quite well. There is also the 0 hex range, or melee. Ambush has ranged fire which covers about 5 or 6 bands and although the combat sequence in Ambush takes longer the combat footprint is less.

In the majority of my games I have made I include ranged firing. The Double Blind games that I ran were not a problem as spending 1 minute or spending 5 minutes calculating combat didn't really matter. My most recent venture which also includes ranged fire has caused one or two moments of grief. Without ranged fire I could easily of got rid of a table or two and simplified the combat system. It's something I want to keep so its me that has to resolve any issues.

I have used a system before which works great on about 95% of tactical weapons and it is this. There are 2 numbers for combat, a Combat stat and a Range stat, before you stat saying this sounds familiar, bear with me. The combat stat is your base stat and for each number of hexes equal to your range stat the combat stat is reduced by 1. So if you had a combat/range stat of 7.1 (rifle unit) the combat of 7 would be reduced by 1 for each 1 hex of range. If you had a combat/range stat of 5.3 (LMG) the combat of 5 would be reduced by 1 for each 3 hexes. It is quite a simple system and I have found calculating ranges becomes second nature. I did say it works on 95% of tactical weapons and where it falls down, or rather becomes messy is when you have weapons that have a high combat value and a low range such as Satchel Charges, Grenades, PIATs, Panzerschrecks etc, which unfortunately my current game includes.



BoJack Horseman wrote:

"this is war" she says, deadpan.


I think I like your wife!
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she is a tough cookie for sure!

I could imagine adding simple variants like for weapons, using their FP +1 if range is inside 50% max, and -1 outside it for example (HMG FP from 9-16 hexes, but 9 from 1-8 hexes) but thats more my natural propensity for picking out rules and mechanics and iterating them "for fun" in my head, I had planned one day to put together a system more akin to Memoir 44 level complexity (so, war themed plastic soldier game really) with odd bits like this

I've got my TTJ (Trust the Jensens) badge now, so I've no plans to fiddle with Combat Commander, but we often have discussions during our games where we wonder why things are this or that way compared to how they could have been.
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Chadwik
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Quote:

2) I also ruled that exiting a hex due to a blaze spreading does not award opportunity fire because it did not involve the spending of MP within a move order

If a rule doesn't have the word "move"anywhere within it, it is not considered movement (and therefore no Op Fire is allowed).
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Chad Jensen wrote:
Quote:

2) I also ruled that exiting a hex due to a blaze spreading does not award opportunity fire because it did not involve the spending of MP within a move order

If a rule doesn't have the word "move"anywhere within it, it is not considered movement (and therefore no Op Fire is allowed).


yes! everytime I tell the wife something later backed up by Corporal Jensen is just another VP in the bank
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Paul Trad

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Having played at war a bit, paintball for example, I am more effective at longer ranges than close.

Most better funded paintball players have super-rapid fire weps, that tend to loose umph over longer range. My old chunker puts out 1/10th the fire but covers long ranges. So I can stand in the open and just have at it against cowering/well-funded opponents.

Their paint also bounces off my jacket without breaking at long range, where I rain down death-from-above-you-scavey-bastards shots.

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