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Subject: Lose the Game card rss

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Chad Taylor
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I was very surprised (and disappointed) to see the You Lose the Game card come up in event deck 7. It was at the very top, and it felt like a cheap loss.

IMO, there are already a number of event cards that slim the event decks, and since there are random cards taken out of each deck every game, there's already an unpredictability to the game timer built in.

I'll almost certainly remove the card from future plays, but I'm wondering what others think of this card.

Otherwise, I loved the game, by the way.
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That's it? Just "Lose the Game" with no pre-conditions? Wow, that's enough for me to consider just passing on the game. Totally lame. Maybe if it was shuffled into the last few cards to create anxiety it might work, and then only if it had a thematic reason. At least then you should feel like you've done your planning but maybe could have done just a bit better. But if it's just a card thrown it that causes you to lose the game it's total crap designing. Thanks for the warning.

One consideration comes to mind though. Are you supposed to have prepared well enough before deck 7 to pull out the win? Even so, allowing it to be the first card in the deck seems harsh.
 
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Jack
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I think it's needed so it adds an uncertain end of game condition, otherwise you'd know EXACTLY how much time you have left.
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That would effectively tell you that you need to win by deck seven since it can be the first card. You could just as easily omit deck seven and declare a win or loss by the end of deck six. Statistically it's a wash, but you should be aware that you've effectively lost going into deck seven, so hopefully there's nothing in that deck so critical that you shouldn't have been able to already acquire it or plan a contingency for it.

And when I say statistically, I mean the card could equally be in any position of the deck to start. After that, the likelyhood of it appearing increases with every previous card pulled that wasn't it.
 
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Walt Mulder wrote:
That's it? Just "Lose the Game" with no pre-conditions? Wow, that's enough for me to consider just passing on the game. Totally lame. Maybe if it was shuffled into the last few cards to create anxiety it might work, and then only if it had a thematic reason. At least then you should feel like you've done your planning but maybe could have done just a bit better. But if it's just a card thrown it that causes you to lose the game it's total crap designing. Thanks for the warning.

One consideration comes to mind though. Are you supposed to have prepared well enough before deck 7 to pull out the win? Even so, allowing it to be the first card in the deck seems harsh.


Yes there is a pre-condition: unable to win the game in SIX decks. Seventh deck is added time to your crew. Remember that killing Hitler at the end of war is already pointless - he will be killing himself anyway.

The idea in this game is to prevent the death of millions of people.

If Hitler is still alive by 7th deck? Isn't it too late
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Chad Taylor
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senorcoo wrote:
I think it's needed so it adds an uncertain end of game condition, otherwise you'd know EXACTLY how much time you have left.


As I mentioned, there are cards that remove cards from the event deck, which can often surprise you and shorten the time you have left considerably. So, no, you shouldn't have to know EXACTLY how much time you have left. Having a random event declare an immediate loss feels extremely cheap. There are certainly less cheap ways to have uncertainty in the final rounds (and the game already has them in its design).


Walt Mulder wrote:
That would effectively tell you that you need to win by deck seven since it can be the first card. You could just as easily omit deck seven and declare a win or loss by the end of deck six. Statistically it's a wash, but you should be aware that you've effectively lost going into deck seven, so hopefully there's nothing in that deck so critical that you shouldn't have been able to already acquire it or plan a contingency for it.

And when I say statistically, I mean the card could equally be in any position of the deck to start. After that, the likelyhood of it appearing increases with every previous card pulled that wasn't it.

Slashdoctor wrote:
Walt Mulder wrote:
That's it? Just "Lose the Game" with no pre-conditions? Wow, that's enough for me to consider just passing on the game. Totally lame. Maybe if it was shuffled into the last few cards to create anxiety it might work, and then only if it had a thematic reason. At least then you should feel like you've done your planning but maybe could have done just a bit better. But if it's just a card thrown it that causes you to lose the game it's total crap designing. Thanks for the warning.

One consideration comes to mind though. Are you supposed to have prepared well enough before deck 7 to pull out the win? Even so, allowing it to be the first card in the deck seems harsh.


Yes there is a pre-condition: unable to win the game in SIX decks. Seventh deck is added time to your crew. Remember that killing Hitler at the end of war is already pointless - he will be killing himself anyway.

The idea in this game is to prevent the death of millions of people.

If Hitler is still alive by 7th deck? Isn't it too late


I can tell you that I was prepared for one final attempt heading into deck 7 (so, no, it wasn't too late), and when that card came up, unlike through the entire rest of the game, it didn't feel like I'd thematically failed, it felt like the game was pulling the rug out and saying, "Ha ha, you lose."

Despite the card, I gave the attempt a shot and failed anyway, and knew that I had no hope of setting anything else up. That felt more realistic by far.


Walt Mulder wrote:
That's it? Just "Lose the Game" with no pre-conditions? Wow, that's enough for me to consider just passing on the game. Totally lame. Maybe if it was shuffled into the last few cards to create anxiety it might work, and then only if it had a thematic reason. At least then you should feel like you've done your planning but maybe could have done just a bit better. But if it's just a card thrown it that causes you to lose the game it's total crap designing. Thanks for the warning.

One consideration comes to mind though. Are you supposed to have prepared well enough before deck 7 to pull out the win? Even so, allowing it to be the first card in the deck seems harsh.


It's easy enough to house-rule. Take it out of the deck or even shuffle it into the last couple of cards in deck 7 (although then you lose the random chance of it not being in the deck to begin with).

Don't miss this great game just because of this one card.
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Philip duBarry
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Glad you are enjoying the game. Just a thought: originally, the events were all in one deck, so in that sense, you do shuffle it in to the last part of the "deck". I know it can be a little disappointing to lose this way, but that's pretty much how it happened in history.

That being said, feel free to shuffle the card in anywhere you want or just leave it out completely. Good hunting!
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Jack
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Personally, I love anything that adds uncertainty. Yeah, it could be the first card. If it is, look back on missed chances and what-ifs. Then, play it again! That's the sign of a good game. This is another that won't be going anywhere any time soon. Looking forward to playing it with my daughter.
 
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Walt Mulder wrote:
That's it? Just "Lose the Game" with no pre-conditions? Wow, that's enough for me to consider just passing on the game. Totally lame. Maybe if it was shuffled into the last few cards to create anxiety it might work, and then only if it had a thematic reason. At least then you should feel like you've done your planning but maybe could have done just a bit better. But if it's just a card thrown it that causes you to lose the game it's total crap designing. Thanks for the warning.

One consideration comes to mind though. Are you supposed to have prepared well enough before deck 7 to pull out the win? Even so, allowing it to be the first card in the deck seems harsh.


There are 7 decks of 8 cards each. The cards are specific to the decks, ie 8 1 deck cards, 8 2 deck cards etc. So this card will be in the last group of cards played. On top of this you randomly remove 2 cards from each deck. So assuming the card is not removed from the game it is one of the last 6 cards played.
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Kevin B. Smith
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Bullwinkle wrote:
when that card came up, unlike through the entire rest of the game, it didn't feel like I'd thematically failed, it felt like the game was pulling the rug out and saying, "Ha ha, you lose."

I can see how frustrating it would be if you don't know in advance that the card exists. However, as long as you know about it before starting the game, I like it.

Basically, to be safe, you need to wrap up before you get into that deck. Going into that deck is its own push-your-luck decision. Think of it like "overtime", where you might have just a bit more time to wrap up your plans...or not.

Aside from removing the card, you could say something like "If you draw this card before X% of that last deck is drawn, draw a replacement and shuffle it back in. Now you know it's coming, but you were given a bit more time.
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peakhope wrote:
Bullwinkle wrote:
when that card came up, unlike through the entire rest of the game, it didn't feel like I'd thematically failed, it felt like the game was pulling the rug out and saying, "Ha ha, you lose."

I can see how frustrating it would be if you don't know in advance that the card exists. However, as long as you know about it before starting the game, I like it.

Basically, to be safe, you need to wrap up before you get into that deck. Going into that deck is its own push-your-luck decision. Think of it like "overtime", where you might have just a bit more time to wrap up your plans...or not.

Aside from removing the card, you could say something like "If you draw this card before X% of that last deck is drawn, draw a replacement and shuffle it back in. Now you know it's coming, but you were given a bit more time.


It is quite clearly listed as one of the loss conditions in the rule book.
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Jack
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peakhope wrote:
Think of it like "overtime"


And a sudden-death one, at that! Great stuff.
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Walt Mulder wrote:
That's it? Just "Lose the Game" with no pre-conditions? Wow, that's enough for me to consider just passing on the game. Totally lame. Maybe if it was shuffled into the last few cards to create anxiety it might work, and then only if it had a thematic reason. At least then you should feel like you've done your planning but maybe could have done just a bit better. But if it's just a card thrown it that causes you to lose the game it's total crap designing. Thanks for the warning.

One consideration comes to mind though. Are you supposed to have prepared well enough before deck 7 to pull out the win? Even so, allowing it to be the first card in the deck seems harsh.


There is a condition. You have to be in Stage 7, which is very very late in the game. It is easy to take out if you want, but the idea is that it forces you to perhaps take bigger risks in that last stage (that is you can't meta game and count down the last cards).
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Barry Miller
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Bullwinkle wrote:
I was very surprised (and disappointed) to see the You Lose the Game card come up in event deck 7. It was at the very top, and it felt like a cheap loss.

I'm joining this conversation late, but have to agree with others above who think this card is a good idea! Here's why:

First off, as mentioned above, everyone KNOWS that card is in the Stage 7 deck. So it's not a cheap loss at all. The rulebook informs us of this. (Or it might even be removed during setup).

Now, consider that as the conspirators, you have a window of time to assassinate Hitler, and it runs out at the end of the 6th stage. That's when the situation reaches "critical mass" and you're now operating on "borrowed time", so to speak.

Thusly, to proceed any further (i.e., into Stage 7) would be done so at extreme risk of getting caught and being executed. That risk is represented by the "Documents Located" card being somewhere in the Stage 7 stack.

IOW, if you haven't killed Hitler by the end of Stage 6, then thematically it's too late. The conspiracy has failed. Perhaps Stage 6 ends with the Conspirators arrested. Perhaps executed. Perhaps not. But if willing to knowingly risk certain execution, Stage 7 allows you to press on!

And again, it might be one of the two cards that are removed during setup. That uncertainty is even more delicious! Geeze, this just really ramps-up the tension going into Stage 7! How can anyone not like that?!

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Chad Taylor
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bgm1961 wrote:

Bullwinkle wrote:
I was very surprised (and disappointed) to see the You Lose the Game card come up in event deck 7. It was at the very top, and it felt like a cheap loss.

I'm joining this conversation late, but have to agree with others above who think this card is a good idea! Here's why:

First off, as mentioned above, everyone KNOWS that card is in the Stage 7 deck. So it's not a cheap loss at all. The rulebook informs us of this. (Or it might even be removed during setup).

Now, consider that as the conspirators, you have a window of time to assassinate Hitler, and it runs out at the end of the 6th stage. That's when the situation reaches "critical mass" and you're now operating on "borrowed time", so to speak.

Thusly, to proceed any further (i.e., into Stage 7) would be done so at extreme risk of getting caught and being executed. That risk is represented by the "Documents Located" card being somewhere in the Stage 7 stack.

IOW, if you haven't killed Hitler by the end of Stage 6, then thematically it's too late. The conspiracy has failed. Perhaps Stage 6 ends with the Conspirators arrested. Perhaps executed. Perhaps not. But if willing to knowingly risk certain execution, Stage 7 allows you to press on!

And again, it might be one of the two cards that are removed during setup. That uncertainty is even more delicious! Geeze, this just really ramps-up the tension going into Stage 7! How can anyone not like that?!



Because there is already plenty of tension and few cards in that last stack as is.

If I am getting everything together when it's down to the wire and I lose just because the game says I do, that doesn't feel thematic to me, just cheap. And I don't like cheap in a game that otherwise feels very thematic. If I'm alone in this, that's fine, but it's still a disappointment to me.
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Jack
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And we don't know that the card is in there for sure. It could be one of the two that got removed.
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Scott Pizio
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The problem to me seems to be that you want the game to represent as closely as possible a perfect information situation. That may work fine in some games, but not in a simulation game like this. There is no way that the conspirators could have had perfect information, much less control over the situation. There are millions of things that could have gone wrong, many seemingly insignificant that could have caused the whole thing to collapse. The lose the game card represents this.
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Chad Taylor
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I think the whole game represents this already. Using that argument, you could just as easily have the lose the game card in any stack in the game.

I absolutely do not want a perfect information situation. That's actually a big turn off for me in most games. However, it's already not a perfect information game without that card.

If you're making a Hail Mary play in the last stage of the game, it's likely already too late. But you have to take the shot anyway. If the stars align (which has grown increasingly unlikely as the end game ramps up), you might just pull it off. You only have a few turns...oh, never mind. You randomly didn't have a chance anyway.

Honestly, I don't see how you guys are making a case for this.
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Barry Miller
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Bullwinkle wrote:
If I am getting everything together when it's down to the wire and I lose just because the game says I do, that doesn't feel thematic to me, just cheap. And I don't like cheap in a game that otherwise feels very thematic. If I'm alone in this, that's fine, but it's still a disappointment to me.

Well, from what I've read and heard elsewhere, you aren't alone. But it does seem like we have different expectations of what a "cheap" experience is...

I base my philosophy that if you know something bad is going to happen, especially if that "bad thing" results from a known rule, then it's not cheap. A cheap experience is one that you don't predict. (This applies to anything in life).

Now, it would be cheap if that card might be anywhere in the deckamong the seven stacks! But it's not. We all know where it's at... it's in the 7th stack. Thusly we should ideally consider that stack to be beyond the end of the game. We have no business going into the 7th stack. If we do, then the risk is on us and we could get bit anytime.

Because I see the decision to go into the 7th stack as one that we make willingly and with full knowledge that the decision could result in losing the game at any time, is why I don't consider it cheap.

Also, when you say, "getting everything together when it's down to the wire", I can understand where you're coming from. But because we know that that card is in Stack 7, then "down to the wire" actually means "Stack 6"!
Stack six is "down to the wire". Go beyond that, and you've jumped over the wire and are knowingly taking your life into your hands.

That aspect of the game's design is why I'm making a case for it.

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Chad Taylor
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This is like saying the game goes to 11.

If the end of the game is meant to be stack 6, then stack 6 should be the end of the game. There is a stack 7. It is the end of the game. Or it should be. Unless you draw a random card that ends the game early.

I'm glad to hear I'm not alone, though, because it sure as hell feels like I am.
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Barry Miller
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Bullwinkle wrote:
I'm glad to hear I'm not alone, though, because it sure as hell feels like I am.

It's all good. If we all thought the same, these forums would be awfully boring!

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Bullwinkle wrote:
This is like saying the game goes to 11.

If the end of the game is meant to be stack 6, then stack 6 should be the end of the game. There is a stack 7. It is the end of the game. Or it should be. Unless you draw a random card that ends the game early.

I'm glad to hear I'm not alone, though, because it sure as hell feels like I am.


I'm unsure how I feel about this. I can see both sides and have flip flopped on the matter, since discovering this thread.

I think knowing there is a potential end game card in the 7th deck really helps. Mentally you can prepare yourself for the possibility. Sort of like knowing about the epidemic cards in Pandemic. Although with those it's not an immediate end game situation (just potentially triggering an end game condition or leading the way for it to happen).

I think I'll have to wait until I've played to see how I truly feel. If it's disliked we'll remove it from the game
 
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I like having the card in stage 7. You never know if it's in there or not. If folks don't like the card then pull it out and don't use it. Simple. No harm no foul.

If a key event is drawn the games timer speeds up and that can happen in every stage. Yet some games a few key events might have been removed and you get more time to kill Hitler. The number of rounds is always variable in this game, which I like. Plus it has card draws, dice rolling and randomized counter locations. Having one card end the whole game in the last stage just adds more to the overall random and unknown outcomes.

Knowing the game ender is lurking close to the end is a nonissue for me. Don't let it ruin a fun game for you. Remove it.
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Chad Taylor
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Well, as I've said, it doesn't ruin a fun game for me. I just find it frustrating that it's there. It's like listening to really great song that just ends on a sour note. Especially since, as you mention, there are already plenty of things that make things variable in the game. A hard stop just seems too abrupt.

Taking it out is still a little bit of a foul, since that means that only one other card will be randomly pulled, giving that last round less variety. Not egregious, but not exactly ideal, either.
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Bullwinkle wrote:


Taking it out is still a little bit of a foul, since that means that only one other card will be randomly pulled, giving that last round less variety. Not egregious, but not exactly ideal, either.


OR: you kind of counterbalance removing the game-ending card by (gasp) pulling two instead of one more random cards from the last deck!!
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