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Hnefatafl» Forums » Rules

Subject: Are there really draw forts in Copenhagen? rss

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Daniel Piovezan
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From Copenhagen Hnefatafl rules.

Quote:
8b. Draw forts are forbidden: If the defenders repeat the defending board position three times while no piece is captured, the attackers win.
(Only in force when the defenders have at least king plus four men left, which is the minimum of pieces needed to build a fort).
Draw forts forbidden.


How's that any different from an exit fort?
 
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Tim Koppang
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"For the listener, who listens in the snow, and, nothing himself, beholds nothing that is not there and the nothing that is." -- Wallace Stevens
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It's escape to the corner, and in the diagram shown, there is no way for the king to move through the line of three diagonally positioned attackers -- nor any way to capture any of the attackers.
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Daniel Piovezan
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Yes, but the king can touch the edge of the board and can move safely, which fits the description of an exit fort, which is a win for white under Copenhagen rules.

The difference between this and the examples of draw forts given by the rules is that black CAN get his pieces inside the fort, but black would lose by doing so.
 
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Tim Koppang
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Ah, yes, I see what you mean now. To be honest, I'm not sure! You raise a good point.
 
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Phil
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The difference is that the king is not safely enclosed as there is a black piece in the upper right corner.
 
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Tim Koppang
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Harlekin wrote:
The difference is that the king is not safely enclosed as there is a black piece in the upper right corner.

But how is that safe? If black moves, white captures (unless there is a sequence I'm not seeing).
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Phil
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If black moves the piece in the upper right white wins. So he won't do that.

The shown example is not very good as most draw forts are build somewhere in the center.

Something like:
-WW-
WK-W
W--W
-WW-
where the king can move but black can't do anything about it. So the King prevents repetition by moving around and therefore would enforce a draw (no captures after 50 moves or what it was). To prevent this those forts are forbidden.
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Daniel Piovezan
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So my main question is answered, there are draw forts in Copenhagen (though they're no draw anymore, but a loss to white).

Still, that doesn't solve the problem with the example, as it technically fits the description of an exit fort. Either the example is a bad one (it wouldn't be the first, see rule 8a), or the definition of exit fort is imprecise.
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Phil
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It isn't an exit fort as there is a free path from the king to a black piece. It could theoretically and logically act as an exit fort but since the condition for an exit fort that the king is completely surrounded by his pieces and the board edge is not given -> no fort at all. In this example it is just rated as draw fort because if black enters the fort in the top row white wins easily. It is a bad example imho.
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Tim Koppang
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Harlekin wrote:
In this example it is just rated as draw fort because if black enters the fort in the top row white wins easily.

I think that is what makes it so bizarre. White loses because of black's weak position. Obviously, under the rules, it's not a weak position for black, but I think you see what I'm getting at -- unintuitive.
 
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Daniel Piovezan
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Harlekin wrote:
(...) since the condition for an exit fort that the king is completely surrounded by his pieces and the board edge is not given -> no fort at all.


You seem to have not read the definition of an exit fort:

Quote:
Exit forts: The defenders also win if the king has contact with the board edge, is able to move, and it is impossible for the attackers to capture him after any amount of moves.


Harlekin wrote:
In this example it is just rated as draw fort because if black enters the fort in the top row white wins easily.


Methinks that's not the definition of draw fort either...
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