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Race for the Galaxy» Forums » General

Subject: Making RFTG Great Again (Stream) rss

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Serge Levert
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In order to make Race for the Galaxy great again, for the foreseeable future i will be streaming it live on Twitch. I will likely also turn the best content into Youtube videos.

I've noticed Youtube has exactly 2 types of videos for RftG (and probably most card/boardgames): Reviews, and How to Play. Straight up 0 strategy videos or anything else whatsoever.

I have several ideas for things i will be doing. What would you guys like to see or do?
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tom tom
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Re: Making RFTG Great Again
Praising it as a 2 player game through play sessions would be good.
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Nathan Milbrath
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Re: Making RFTG Great Again
Was it ever not great? whistle
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Alexandre Santos
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Re: Making RFTG Great Again
RFTG is one of my favorite games, period. So whatever ideas you have I'll be interested, even though I have no suggestions myself, sorry.
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Serge Levert
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Re: Making RFTG Great Again
pickboy87 wrote:
Was it ever not great? :whistle:

Agreed. Was more meant like "Making RFTG Popular Again". The forums have been way too dead, not doing the game justice.
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Mike Bialecki
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Re: Making RFTG Great Again
1qwerty wrote:
Praising it as a 2 player game through play sessions would be good.


Your suggestion implies that it's possible to play the game with more than two players. Surely, you are mistaken.
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Tom Lehmann
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Re: Making RFTG Great Again
All the "add-ons" -- Goals, Takeovers, Orb, and Invasion -- and Prestige work better, in my opinion, with more than two players.

One of my few regrets with Race is that we did so much work on its simultaneous aspects to make it play well with 4+ players and that so few players take advantage of this.

Yes, a 2-player game may take 15-20 minutes while a 6-player game may take 30-40 minutes, but the cut and thrust of more than two different strategies in the larger player game generally makes for a richer experience.

Part of the problem is that Wei-Hwa and I did too good a job on the 2-player rules. As Richard Garfield has pointed out in other contexts, once you give players some extra perceived control in a game (in this case, calling two actions a round), many players will simply refuse to play any other way.

Oh, well, the customer is always right. Right? ;-)
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ackmondual
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Re: Making RFTG Great Again
Tom Lehmann wrote:
All the "add-ons" -- Goals, Takeovers, Orb, and Invasion -- and Prestige work better, in my opinion, with more than two players.

One of my few regrets with Race is that we did so much work on its simultaneous aspects to make it play well with 4+ players and that so few players take advantage of this.

Yes, a 2-player game may take 15-20 minutes while a 6-player game may take 30-40 minutes, but the cut and thrust of more than two different strategies in the larger player game generally makes for a richer experience.

Part of the problem is that Wei-Hwa and I did too good a job on the 2-player rules. As Richard Garfield has pointed out in other contexts, once you give players some extra perceived control in a game (in this case, calling two actions a round), many players will simply refuse to play any other way.

Oh, well, the customer is always right. Right? ;-)


From what you've observed and know, 2p (advanced) games really do dominate the # of plays across the player range?

FWIW, in the various groups I've played Race with (base game, 1st exp. only, 1st 2 exp's, full first arc, and AA), 2pa games were the minority. When we had 3 to 5 players, it would've been more awkward to not leave people out. Even in a large gathering (15+ people where there's almost always at least 3 games going on at once, so they could sit out and join other games), our groups would still opt for 3 to 6p games.

If we were down to 2, then yeah, 2pa game it is then!

.

Also, even though 2pa games end much more quickly due to having fewer rounds, with me playing at least, I end up having to add an extra 5 to 10 minutes per game (perhaps even 15!?). "Problem" is, with only 1 opponent, it makes it more plausible to anticipate all possible outcomes I'd need to deal with. In a 3p or 4p game, I just don't bother as much with that. Most I'll do is note that p3 is likely to V, while p2 is likely to call I, and hope for the best.

Also, picking 2 action cards, and anticipating what 2 action cards my opponent will pick tends also expand the "decision tree", so even though there are less rounds, each round "weighs more".
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Keldon Jones
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Re: Making RFTG Great Again
ackmondual wrote:

From what you've observed and know, 2p (advanced) games really do dominate the # of plays across the player range?

From my online server, it breaks down like this:

2p - 26805
2pe - 139431
3p - 50632
4p - 23678
5p - 1678
6p - 766
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Marco Schaub
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Re: Making RFTG Great Again
Tom Lehmann wrote:
All the "add-ons" -- Goals, Takeovers, Orb, and Invasion -- and Prestige work better, in my opinion, with more than two players.

One of my few regrets with Race is that we did so much work on its simultaneous aspects to make it play well with 4+ players and that so few players take advantage of this.

Yes, a 2-player game may take 15-20 minutes while a 6-player game may take 30-40 minutes, but the cut and thrust of more than two different strategies in the larger player game generally makes for a richer experience.

Part of the problem is that Wei-Hwa and I did too good a job on the 2-player rules. As Richard Garfield has pointed out in other contexts, once you give players some extra perceived control in a game (in this case, calling two actions a round), many players will simply refuse to play any other way.

Oh, well, the customer is always right. Right? ;-)


I love the game at all player counts. Especially because of its simultaneous nature. It's certainly easier to play with the 2-player advanced rules, but I'm puzzled that so many people think this is the way it ought to be.

To the OP: Watching people play is not that interesting, at least for me. I loved to watch Magic, but you really need a way to focus on each card and you also need expert commentary that explains what is happening and what players are trying to accomplish. So you'd basically have to shoot it and then do a voiceover commentary in the editing process. I don't know, I think this is way too much work.

Focusing on strategies and discussions might be a better way to get started.
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ackmondual
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Re: Making RFTG Great Again
mrkeldon wrote:
ackmondual wrote:

From what you've observed and know, 2p (advanced) games really do dominate the # of plays across the player range?

From my online server, it breaks down like this:

2p - 26805
2pe - 139431
3p - 50632
4p - 23678
5p - 1678
6p - 766


Numbers seem to support that. However, any way to determine biases? I've noticed that trend with some online bg is lower player counts tend to be more popular to minimize waiting on others (with simultaneous movement, this effect is reduced, but still there. Case in point is when someone has AP in 7 Wonders, it may not take THAT MUCH longer, but it sure feels like it given the game's relative quickness), and that less players means games naturally form and get started more easily.

Also, quitting (passive or actual quitting otherwise) is statistically lower at the lower player counts, which is another thing online goers would like to minimize happening.
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Graham Robinson
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Re: Making RFTG Great Again
Tom Lehmann wrote:
One of my few regrets with Race is that we did so much work on its simultaneous aspects to make it play well with 4+ players and that so few players take advantage of this.


We normally play with 4, sometimes 3 or 5. I don't think I've ever played Race face to face with 2. 2 player just isn't something that happens much in my circle, and when it does, we tend to play games that can only be played by 2, as otherwise they don't hit the table.

I wonder if the strong following 2PE has here skews the appearance of how many players are normal. Or maybe we're just odd...

Cheers,
Graham
 
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Serge Levert
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Re: Making RFTG Great Again
emptyset wrote:
I loved to watch Magic, but you really need a way to focus on each card and you also need expert commentary that explains what is happening and what players are trying to accomplish.

I guess it's convenient that that's exactly what i'm doing. :) Extra large zoomed in card with expert commentary.

emptyset wrote:
So you'd basically have to shoot it and then do a voiceover commentary in the editing process. I don't know, I think this is way too much work.

It would be, if it was necessary, but i'm able to do it live. Check tonight's VOD for example. LMK where there's room for improvement.
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Raphaël Langella
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Re: Making RFTG Great Again
ackmondual wrote:
Also, quitting (passive or actual quitting otherwise) is statistically lower at the lower player counts, which is another thing online goers would like to minimize happening.

Yes. I usually play 2PA online and 3+ IRL.
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Alexandre Santos
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Re: Making RFTG Great Again
As a counter point I tend to play 2p F2F, 3p being the second most common configuration.

I tend to view RFTG as a quick game, and so usually only consider it at low player counts. Tom's comments make me think I should try the add-ons at higher player counts (4p). I must admit I never played any of the add-ons, so maybe that's the push I needed
 
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Conan Meriadoc
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Re: Making RFTG Great Again
We tend to play RFTG a lot at 4+ players (6 being quite common), since it's one of the rare games I know that stays fast-paced AND strategic at high player counts. I don't think I've ever played Keldon with more than 3P, though; screen readability, convenience, etc. all play a factor.
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Mark Delano
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Re: Making RFTG Great Again
I've never had a problem with the speed of 5/6 player RFTG, but I prefer the play environment in 3/4 player.
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Bryan Wilson
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Re: Making RFTG Great Again
My games are all online which is almost exclusively 2-player. I love the control of picking 2 phases. This is something I miss in Roll.

To OP:
- Military vs consume strategy. (How to do military without throwing the game 75% of the time).
- When to abandon your initial strategy.
- Overused cards (ie. Do you really need that 1-cost dev?)
- Underused cards (ie. New economy is your best friend.)
 
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Hisham Masri
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Re: Making RFTG Great Again
Tom Lehmann wrote:
All the "add-ons" -- Goals, Takeovers, Orb, and Invasion -- and Prestige work better, in my opinion, with more than two players.

One of my few regrets with Race is that we did so much work on its simultaneous aspects to make it play well with 4+ players and that so few players take advantage of this.

Yes, a 2-player game may take 15-20 minutes while a 6-player game may take 30-40 minutes, but the cut and thrust of more than two different strategies in the larger player game generally makes for a richer experience.

Part of the problem is that Wei-Hwa and I did too good a job on the 2-player rules. As Richard Garfield has pointed out in other contexts, once you give players some extra perceived control in a game (in this case, calling two actions a round), many players will simply refuse to play any other way.

Oh, well, the customer is always right. Right? ;-)


I think you have it right Tom. I only enjoy the 2p game, and when we have 3p, one of us usually sits to watch as the other 2 finish the game.

As for the reason, we do not play with the "add-ons", except Xeno Invasion (I am not sure the cards would work/balanced with the Xeno mini-game). This may also be the reason that my favorite expansion is Alien Artifacts, without the mini-game naturally.

Still love the game to death, and play it often. I just find that 2p, without "add-ons" is my preferred method of play. Also, you are correct in the selecting 2 actions per round changes the dynamic significantly for us that we much rather play with that rule.
 
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ackmondual
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Re: Making RFTG Great Again
FWIW, 4p and 3p counts aren't that far off behind according the "best number of players" poll for this game....


player count
Best
| Recommended
| | Not Recommended
| | Vote Count
1 2.1% (9) 19.2% (82) 78.6% (335) 426

2 67.8% (530) 28.6% (224) 3.6% (28) 782

3 37.0% (265) 59.1% (424) 3.9% (28) 717

4 50.7% (358) 43.3% (306) 5.9% (42) 706

>4 3.2% (12) 20.5% (77) 76.3% (287) 376

Total voters 839
 
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Steve
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Re: Making RFTG Great Again
bryantw wrote:
Underused cards (ie. New economy is your best friend.)

New Economy is underused? Are people not counting the end-game points? It's a great card.

I've played with all the expansions (save for the Orb), all player counts and a bunch online. RftG is a great 2-player game. At 3 & 4 it's just okay in my opinion. I often game with a couple who feel the same way. For a similar game with 3+ we play Glory to Rome or even Puerto Rico. I'd throw San Juan with the expansion in there too, but one of them doesn't like it.
 
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Re: Making RFTG Great Again
Tom Lehmann wrote:
a 2-player game may take 15-20 minutes while a 6-player game may take 30-40 minutes


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Marco Schaub
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Re: Making RFTG Great Again
entranced wrote:
emptyset wrote:
I loved to watch Magic, but you really need a way to focus on each card and you also need expert commentary that explains what is happening and what players are trying to accomplish.

I guess it's convenient that that's exactly what i'm doing. Extra large zoomed in card with expert commentary.


Well, great then! cool
 
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Kester J
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Re: Making RFTG Great Again
Thanks for this effort, Serge! I too miss the days when the Race forums were a hive of activity. Sadly I'm a bit too busy these days to even get to play Race nearly as much as I'd like, let alone create content, but if there are any little things I can do to help out, let me know. I promise I'll participate if you do try to push some discussion or similar on here
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Sam
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Re: Making RFTG Great Again
I would say I play 90% 2pA, though I do enjoy multiplayer. I just have lots of great 3-5 player games, and very few 2p games as fun as Race. I play with Alien Artifacts exclusively these days; it's completely replaced the original arc for me. Interested in Xeno Invasion, though I haven't yet picked it up.

I am good at 2pA but bad at multiplayer. I would appreciate a video talking about multiplayer strategy, and in particular aimed at helping people who do a lot of 2-player make the transition to multiplayer. I would also enjoy a video covering the subtleties of variants, especially takeovers and the orb. I've never tried them, but a good video could get me excited about them.
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