$18.00
GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters: 121.37

7,295 Supporters

$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
46% of Goal | left

Support:

Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
25 Posts

Arkham Horror: The Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Evade Action vs. Evade Ability (and their functions) rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
J. Crisman
United States
Decatur
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
So, I thought I had a pretty good grasp on the intended design of Evade...and then I started reading random rules questions here. First, this debate...

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1671599/blinding-light-and-...

I agree that the use of a card that allows you to Evade shouldn't trigger an Attack of Opportunity. That's not the problem. My issue is when I was reading this discussing something else...

Gaffa wrote:
The Yellow Meeple wrote:
Do you have to be engaged with an enemy to evade them?


For the generic Evade action, yes, as you can only Evade enemies you are engaged with. Some cards give you more potent Evade abilities that let you Evade enemies you aren't engaged with.

But if you're in a location with an unexhausted unengaged enemy, they will immediately engage you for free (or, if there are two or more of you there, whomever their Prey dictates they engage).

So you can spend 1 action to try to Evade them again, and then if successful you have two actions to kick at their stunned body on the floor.

(One exception to the above: Aloof enemies don't engage anyone unless you engage them first)


In the first debate, it is concluded that using a card that allows you to Evade is an Evade action, just a modified one. So, following that conclusion, and the second quote, in which you can only use an Evade action on an enemy you are engaged with...

Can you play a card that allows you to Evade an Enemy on an Enemy that you are not engaged with?

If you look at these two rule clarifications together, it would seem that you can not. It if I recall correctly, that would make some cards very useless.

/down the rabbit hole we go
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nushura
Japan
Sendai
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I am afraid to ask but...why would I ever want to evade an enemy that I am not engaged with?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J. Crisman
United States
Decatur
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
To effectively "stun" it. From Hunting, or even chewing the face off of the Investigator it IS engaged with.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nushura
Japan
Sendai
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Oh, I see.

Then the answer is "it depends on the card, but most probably not."

Specifically, the card must allow you to start an evade action with any Enemy.

Survival Instincts can only be played while you are disengaging (and thus does not allow you to disengage something you are not engaged with).

Elusive again specifies "enemies engaged with you"

From the top of my head I cannot think of any in the current card pool...but I expect someone to prove me wrong.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marc Bowling
msg tools
I am being quoted! Woo hoo!

I would assume you have to be engaged to use a card that evades an enemy as well.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew McFarland
United States
Floresville
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Under Event Cards: " An event card cannot be played unless the resolution of it's effect has the potential to change the game state." Since you can only Evade enemies engaged with you, no, you wouldn't be able to play Blinding Light et al. while unengaged.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J. Crisman
United States
Decatur
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
So, something like Cunning Distraction only affects enemies you are engaged with, even though it says "all"...per those rules?

/DevilsAdvocate
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew McFarland
United States
Floresville
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
That obviously overrides the typical Evade action. That's covered under Action Designators.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nushura
Japan
Sendai
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Eyefink wrote:
That obviously overrides the typical Evade action. That's covered under Action Designators.

QFT. In addition Cards overrule the rulebook.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nushura
Japan
Sendai
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The Yellow Meeple wrote:
I am being quoted! Woo hoo!

Said someone very very smart...and handsome.

So easy to make someone happy on the internet nowadays
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mplain
Russia
flag msg tools
mbmb
This one is weird. Matt said that Cunning Distraction evades ALL enemies (even those you're not engaged with), and Stray Cat also can evade an enemy that you're not engaged with - by virtue of card text trumping general rules. I's think that card text only trumps rules if it directly contradicts the rules. To my mind, nothing about "evade a non-Elite enemy" directly contradicts the rule that says "you can only evade an enemy that you're engaged with". At the same time Blinding Light or any other card that just says "Evade." is still bound by general restrictions. I hope they'll clarify this issue in the FAQ.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nushura
Japan
Sendai
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
what is there to clarify? unless the says otherwise you can only evade enemies you are engaged with.

cunning distraction and stray cat explicitly affect other monsters. blinding light does not.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gene Griffith
United States
Antioch
California
flag msg tools
mb
mplain wrote:
This one is weird. Matt said that Cunning Distraction evades ALL enemies (even those you're not engaged with), and Stray Cat also can evade an enemy that you're not engaged with - by virtue of card text trumping general rules. I's think that card text only trumps rules if it directly contradicts the rules. To my mind, nothing about "evade a non-Elite enemy" directly contradicts the rule that says "you can only evade an enemy that you're engaged with". At the same time Blinding Light or any other card that just says "Evade." is still bound by general restrictions. I hope they'll clarify this issue in the FAQ.


Cunning distraction has the bold Evade trait to show it can be used without triggering an attack of opportunity, further it clearly hits all enemies at the location having no requirement for them to be engaged with you. Cat doesn't need to have Evade as part of its traits as it is a quick action and won't provoke anyway. The fact it specifies "at your location" is the key wording that enables it to Evade something you aren't engaged with.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mplain
Russia
flag msg tools
mbmb
Ah, somehow I thought that Stray Cat has the bold Evade action designator. It doesn't, and it is indeed a fast action, so that makes more sense. Basically the restriction to engaged enemies only applies to the action designator, and if the word "evade" is not in bold, then it's a card effect not restricted by the rules. I guess this makes sense.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
D H
msg tools
mplain wrote:
This one is weird. Matt said that Cunning Distraction evades ALL enemies (even those you're not engaged with), and Stray Cat also can evade an enemy that you're not engaged with - by virtue of card text trumping general rules. I's think that card text only trumps rules if it directly contradicts the rules. To my mind, nothing about "evade a non-Elite enemy" directly contradicts the rule that says "you can only evade an enemy that you're engaged with". At the same time Blinding Light or any other card that just says "Evade." is still bound by general restrictions. I hope they'll clarify this issue in the FAQ.


I think it's because you're not realizing that "a" in English can be used as a general qualifier; when Stray Cat says you can evade "a" non-Elite enemy, that opens the choices to all non-Elites at your location, just as Elusive's ability to let you move to "a" revealed location allows the choice of any, not just the ones near you.

(For those who do not frequent other gaming sites, mplain and I hash out the rules regularly across many of them, and I meant the above in all respect, as mplain is awesome and does a lot of work, but occasionally gets tripped up on minutae of what isn't his primary language. Love to you, buddy!)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mplain
Russia
flag msg tools
mbmb
I wonder, is this explanation convincing to native English speakers? That "evade an enemy at your location" directly contradicts the general rule of "you can only evade enemies that you're engaged with".
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Emily Dickinson
United States
Utah
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
mplain wrote:
I wonder, is this explanation convincing to native English speakers? That "evade an enemy at your location" directly contradicts the general rule of "you can only evade enemies that you're engaged with".


Yes.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marco Donghi
Italy
Near Milan
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm not a native english speaker, but to me this explanation doesn't sound right. Yes, 'evade a monster at your location' means any one monster. But if it's not engaged with you, what's the point? If the monster is engaged to another investigator, and you evade it, good for you, but that investigator is still not evading it.

You may say that 'evade' has a technical meaning in this game, that is, to exhaust the monster and break engagement. So YOU evade it but it can disengage from ANOTHER investigator.

But then, wouldn't it have been clearer if the card said: an investigator in your location evades a monster?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Emily Dickinson
United States
Utah
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Vittek wrote:
I'm not a native english speaker, but to me this explanation doesn't sound right. Yes, 'evade a monster at your location' means any one monster. But if it's not engaged with you, what's the point? If the monster is engaged to another investigator, and you evade it, good for you, but that investigator is still not evading it.

You may say that 'evade' has a technical meaning in this game, that is, to exhaust the monster and break engagement. So YOU evade it but it can disengage from ANOTHER investigator.

But then, wouldn't it have been clearer if the card said: an investigator in your location evades a monster?


Evade in this game is best understood as an offensive action - nothing at all happens to the Evading Investigator, the effect is to move and exhaust the enemy. For that reason, when Cards allow an Investigator to Evade enemies a different Investigator in engaged with, that other Investigator can be ignored during the Evasion.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Evan Stegman
United States
Minneapolis
MN
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Gaffa wrote:
...

I think it's because you're not realizing that "a" in English can be used as a general qualifier; ...


But just because it uses 'a', that doesn't mean it is saying you ignore all other qualifying factors.

Using the logic that the use of 'a' means 'any without restrictions that are not explicitly stated on the card', you would also have to allow evading enemies at other locations, evading enemies in the discard pile, etc.



 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew McFarland
United States
Floresville
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
It's not the use of "a" that makes it seem like Strauss Cat and Cunning Distraction can affect enemies not engaged with you, its the use of "at your location." There's no need to specify if it follows the normal rules.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mplain
Russia
flag msg tools
mbmb
EvanMinn wrote:
But just because it uses 'a', that doesn't mean it is saying you ignore all other qualifying factors.

Using the logic that the use of 'a' means 'any without restrictions that are not explicitly stated on the card', you would also have to allow evading enemies at other locations, evading enemies in the discard pile, etc.

While I agree with the first statement, the second one is moot because Stray Cat says "Avade a non-Elite enemy at your location."
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ivan Cox
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
EvanMinn wrote:
Gaffa wrote:
...

I think it's because you're not realizing that "a" in English can be used as a general qualifier; ...


But just because it uses 'a', that doesn't mean it is saying you ignore all other qualifying factors.

Using the logic that the use of 'a' means 'any without restrictions that are not explicitly stated on the card', you would also have to allow evading enemies at other locations, evading enemies in the discard pile, etc.


I think the operative word here isn't 'a' but the phrase 'at your location'. A standard evade can only be performed on an enemy engaged with the evading investigator. In order for the phrase 'at your location' on Stray Cat & Cunning Distraction not to be superfluous, it follows that those cards allow enemies to be evaded at your location beyond the reach of a standard evade action - so they can be evaded even if they're not engaged with the investigator playing one of those cards, i.e. if they are engaged with another investigator at that location, or unengaged.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J. Crisman
United States
Decatur
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Esgaldil wrote:
Evade in this game is best understood as an offensive action - nothing at all happens to the Evading Investigator, the effect is to move and exhaust the enemy. For that reason, when Cards allow an Investigator to Evade enemies a different Investigator in engaged with, that other Investigator can be ignored during the Evasion.


Ya. Evade is an odd name for the function of the mechanism. "Hinder" or something along those lines would make more sense IMO.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew McFarland
United States
Floresville
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Wow, this was litteraly answered within minutes of me sending it in:
Quote:
Yes. Both Stray Cat and Cunning Distraction modify the normal effect and allow you to evade any enemy at your location, or in the case of Cunning Distraction, all enemies at your location.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.